jillybean Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 [hv=pc=n&s=sk75hk7d7654cakj2&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=p2hdp2sp?]133|200[/hv] Before placing the 2♠ bid on the table, North made a long, audible sigh.South says "your sigh restricts me, luckily I don't have spades" End of story? What would you do if you were called to the table here? (Yes, we should have called the director but we were playing nice at the club.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 west bid 2♠ or north? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Before placing the 2♠ bid on the table, North made a long, audible sigh.Sorry, jillybean, but this is a bit confusing. The diagram shows West not North placing the 2♠ bid on the table.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I will assume that there was a pass between the double and the 2♠ call. (ah - jilly fixed it) Next for south, IMO pass is correct with no logical alternative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted October 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Sorry, changing the hand to orient South and messed up the bidding - fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 How experienced a player is South? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerE Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (Yes, we should have called the director but we were playing nice at the club.) Oh how I wish this thought process would die. Being nice IS calling the director. I've seen far worse ill will generated when the director isn't immediately called than vice versa. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Oh how I wish this thought process would die. Being nice IS calling the director. I've seen far worse ill will generated when the director isn't immediately called than vice versa. Ah, you got there before I did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Next for south, IMO pass is correct with no logical alternative.It isn't South we should be concerned with; he should indeed pass. If South made his gratuitous utterance before North placed the 2♠ card on the table, we need the TD at this point to receive the facts and determine (after the hand is over) whether the number of Spades North bid was or could have been influenced by South's declaration that his double was a Spade short. Edit: Definitely not the end of the story. We might even find out that North held some 3-4-2-4 or 4-3-5-1 etc and after the comment by big mouth selected a L.A. least suggested by the UI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Sighs come in all different sorts. Is it clear that this one was of the "I would like to bid more" variety rather than the "omg, I have nothing and HAVE to bid" type? I personally seee (hear) more of the latter. Assuming that is not the case, I am guessing South wanted to make a point that they were being ethical, perhaps to try and ward off a TD call, or perhaps to try and educate their partner. As TD, one would ask the players to finish the hand and see at the end if there was any damage. A quiet word to South to say that it would be better if they explained their thoughts regarding UI at the end of the hand to avoid creating an additional problem would not be a bad idea either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 It isn't South we should be concerned with; he should indeed pass. If South made his gratuitous utterance before North placed the 2♠ card on the table, we need the TD at this point to receive the facts and determine (after the hand is over) whether the number of Spades North bid was or could have been influenced by South's declaration that his double was a Spade short. Edit: Definitely not the end of the story. We might even find out that North held some 3-4-2-4 or 4-3-5-1 etc and after the comment by big mouth selected a L.A. least suggested by the UI.I didn't think about that. I assumed the sequence was 1. sigh2. 2♠3. south's comment but I guess the OP doesn't say that exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 As I understand it, sighing is not against the laws, and neither are South's comments - what they do is restrict partner's future actions to logical alternatives. South has no logical alternative except pass, and North will not get another action if it passes out. Where it gets interesting is with East-west, if they decide to compete further, then both N and S have opened themselves up to a world of hurt on subsequent judgment calls. If they do not compete further because of the comments and actions of their opponents, then they might be entitled to redress - I'm not sure how that works, other than N-S had to know that their UI could have misled opponents or something. So anyway, if E-W were not competing further, and it was clear, then I'd let it slide, maybe talking to the person afterwards, because there is no damage. Otherwise, call the director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 As I understand it, sighing is not against the laws, and neither are South's comments 74B2. But it is not just an etiquette thing, since it could become communication under 73 which leads to other sections on UI/MI/ and L.A.'s, plus even 23. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 74B2. But it is not just an etiquette thing, since it could become communication under 73 which leads to other sections on UI/MI/ and L.A.'s, plus even 23. [sigh] If only I cared more, or wasn't too lazy, I might look up those citations. [/sigh] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted October 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 How experienced a player is South? Very experienced. I didn't think about that. I assumed the sequence was 1. sigh2. 2♠3. south's comment but I guess the OP doesn't say that exactly. In my opening post I said 1.2.3 but not in that order.Before placing the 2♠ bid on the table, North made a long, audible sigh.South says "your sigh restricts me, luckily I don't have spades" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Sorry. But if called to the table I would have to try a third time. I would write the three events on a piece of paper and have someone number them chronologically from 1st to last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Why would South have said anything about spades if it weren't after North bid spades? It seems pretty likely that it was 1, 2, 3. I guess South assumed that since North made a minimum call, he was never going to bid freely anyway, so his comment wouldn't have any effect. But this is incorrect thinking -- If North has a max fr his call and 5+ spades, he might very well compete, but the comment would talk him out of it (or if he's properly ethical, he'll have to figure out what he has to do in the face of the UI). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Really? Kxx isn't "spades" with a takeout double? As long as South continues the comment with "pass", I'm not upset - he doesn't have the points either. But the comment is as much UI transmission as the sigh, so the education should wait until after the hand :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Given that South is "very experienced", I'm tempted to give him a PP - he should know better than to make comments like that. IAC, if called to the table at this point, I would caution both N and S about their obligations given that they both have UI, and tell the table to proceed. I would remain at the table until the auction is over, at least*. I would tell the table to call me back after the hand if they feel the UI caused a problem, or if I remained at the table until play was over I'd ask if anyone feels the UI caused a problem. *This isn't absolutely necessary, but by remaining, I will not have to sort out conflicting testimony later as to what happened in the auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 The sigh could mean a few different things that if handled properly are unlikely to cause any damage. The comments by South clearly indicate a hand that would not own the clear cut pass which they have and could be terribly misleading when E/W should compete but are led to believe N/S are off the rails. A couple of times when an experienced and otherwise ethical player has stepped in it like this I pointed it out without calling the Director (no damage happened) and they actually blushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 In my opening post I said 1.2.3 but not in that order.Before placing the 2♠ bid on the table, North made a long, audible sigh.South says "your sigh restricts me, luckily I don't have spades"This sounds like precisely 1,2,3 in that order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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