16 opposite 16 - how to reach slam

[EricK]

[hv=pc=n&s=saqt53hakq6dj9ct4&n=skh843dkqt53cakj2&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1sp2dp2hp3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

How would you bid these hands?

 

Our sequence (playing something akin to Acol) is shown. Who should have done more/different?

[MrAce]

 

How would you bid these hands?

 

Our sequence (playing something akin to Acol) is shown. Who should have done more/different?

 

Does that mean 2♦ was not gf ?

 

 

 

[mike777]

Maybe over 2h north can try 3c or 4nt if quant.

 

 

1s=2d

2h=3c(4sf)

3d=4h or 4nt quant?

5c=6d

 

4h=rkc in d.

 

or

 

1s=2d

2h=4nt(quant)

6nt

[Fluffy]

non 2/1

 

1♠-2♦

2♥-3NT

4NT-6NT

 

 

2/1

 

1♠-2♦

2♥-2NT

4NT-6NT

[EricK]

Does that mean 2♦ was not gf ?

Yes, that is what it means. Essentially, 2♦ is strong enough to be in game opposite a 15-17 NT

[mikeh]

All systems have seams, and thus are prone to issues like this one, especially if both partners choose the same hand to be either both conservative (underbids result) or both aggressive (overbids result).

 

However, I am not convinced that this is a case of the hands being in the seams of the methods. In particular, I think S overlooked the value of his diamond cards. This hand is quite different from AQ10xx AKQx xx Jx.

 

The J9 in what is likely, on this auction, to be a 5 card suit, are important cards. Consider their power opposite say AQ10xx or A108xx or KQ8xx, let alone the actual hand, and partner could be looking at a 6 carder.

 

Accordingly, I think opener owed responder a 4N call, over which responder should have no problem bidding slam.

[aguahombre]

Yes. Mikeh is saying THIS 16 opposite THIS 16 should not miss slam --regardless of whether 2D was g.f. or not.

[jdeegan]

:P Whatever your system, the N hand might best offer 3♣ over 2♥. After a 3NT reply by S, another encouraging bid is in order. Maybe 4NT? Holding 16 nice looking HCP and an obvious source of tricks in the ♦ suit opposite an unlimited opener, you can't afford to give up on slam right away. Give it just one more chance. Maybe 4♦ would do the job? To quote the late, great Dorothy Hayden, "slam bidding is conversational."

[EricK]

:P Whatever your system, the N hand might best offer 3♣ over 2♥. After a 3NT reply by S, another encouraging bid is in order. Maybe 4NT? Holding 16 nice looking HCP and an obvious source of tricks in the ♦ suit opposite an unlimited opener, you can't afford to give up on slam right away. Give it just one more chance. Maybe 4♦ would do the job? To quote the late, great Dorothy Hayden, "slam bidding is conversational."

3♣ would be FSF; 3NT in reply would show something in ♣.

[jdeegan]

3♣ would be FSF; 3NT in reply would show something in ♣.

:P Not my favorite treatment, but legitimate. So, now you still have to bid something. How about 3♦? Maybe this is even better? Saves bidding space, at least. I still cannot terminate this auction at 3NT opposite an unlimited partner. I do not like your suits, so a major suit preference is out of the question. You have denied five hearts. I can't bid ♣ again w/o showing a genuine two suited hand. Once again we are down to 4♦ or 4NT. I guess I would bid 4NT, and you would either pass or bid on. As far as I can see 4NT is the limit of the hand opposite your minimum.

 

It looks like one way or the other, we are going to blunder into 6♦ or 6NT.

[MrAce]

Yes. Mikeh is saying THIS 16 opposite THIS 16 should not miss slam --regardless of whether 2D was g.f. or not.

 

LOL

 

The topic in hand is NOT about whether we can/should bid slam with this 16 opposite this 16. OP asked clearly "how do you bid these hands? " in order to grant the request and write down an auction, knowing the meaning of their bids may be important, because he also asked "Who should have done more/different? " for their own auction.

 

Who in this topic said that 2♦ being GF or not will affect the ability to bid slam ?

 

 

And thank you for translating what MikeH wrote and what it meant to rest of us.

[ahydra]

Second hand in a few days where opener holding a good 16 should invite with 4NT after responder signs off in 3NT.

 

I'd have 4SF'd on the north hand though, with two nice suits + the SK it is too good to bid 3NT direct. After 3C-3S-3NT opener knows that responder has a slam invite* and can pretty much just bid 6NT there and then.

 

(* or does he - this "delayed game" sequence should probably be slam invitational, but how else do you look to see if opener has 5 hearts?)

 

ahydra

[EricK]

:P Not my favorite treatment, but legitimate. So, now you still have to bid something. How about 3♦? Maybe this is even better? Saves bidding space, at least. I still cannot terminate this auction at 3NT opposite an unlimited partner. I do not like your suits, so a major suit preference is out of the question. You have denied five hearts. I can't bid ♣ again w/o showing a genuine two suited hand. Once again we are down to 4♦ or 4NT. I guess I would bid 4NT, and you would either pass or bid on. As far as I can see 4NT is the limit of the hand opposite your minimum.

 

It looks like one way or the other, we are going to blunder into 6♦ or 6NT.

3♦ is NF (invitational hand with 6+♦)

[EricK]

Second hand in a few days where opener holding a good 16 should invite with 4NT after responder signs off in 3NT.

 

I'd have 4SF'd on the north hand though, with two nice suits + the SK it is too good to bid 3NT direct. After 3C-3S-3NT opener knows that responder has a slam invite* and can pretty much just bid 6NT there and then.

 

(* or does he - this "delayed game" sequence should probably be slam invitational, but how else do you look to see if opener has 5 hearts?)

 

ahydra

There's a thread elsewhere on this forum asking whether opener, with 55 in the majors, should bid 4♥ or leave 3NT after this sort of sequence. A number of people (myself included!) opined that if responder was interested in hearing about the 5th ♥ he would have bid FSF.

[gszes]

as an aside------I do not see any hands posted but I can read all of the comments about the hands---

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I think 3NT is the lazy bid, North should bid 3C, FSF.

If he gets the information partner is 55 he has found a fit, if he

gets the information South has 3 diamonds, he has found a fit.

 

If he gets the default response, say 3H, and he bids 3NT delayed,

he may (or may not) have shown add. strength, depending on agreement

due to the fact, that he did bid 3NT via a delayed route.

 

I am not claiming, that you reach 6, but you may at a slightly different

set of hands.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[A2003]

[hv=d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1sp2dp2hp3c(4th%20suit%20forcing)p3sp4n(Quantitative.)p6nppp]133|100[/hv]

3♣= 4th suit forcing

3♠ Denies ♣control, no 3 card ♦support, No 5th card in ♥ and so distribution is 6421 or 5422.

4NT = Quantitative (shows 16+)

6NT = Extra values accept invitation.

[ggwhiz]

You definitely will get a 4nt quantitative raise but only if responder goes through 4th suit imo. My partnership agreement is that it is stronger than the jump to 3nt, general principle slower = better.

 

1♠ - 2♦

2♥ - 3♣

3♦ - 3nt

4nt........ some slam would be our auction.

 

I don't understand 4nt being quantitative unless it's over 3nt. Y'all must be playing Kickback, Minorwood, Dollywood etc. anything but blackwood

[gszes]

standard (ish)

 

1s

2d

3h have to get those extra values in early or else one p or another has to guess to invite

6n very decent hand but nothing so special we should be thinking of 7 and that singleton spade---

 

2/1 (ish)

 

1s

2d

2h

3n "tweener" 15+ to18-

6n it would not be unreasonable to try 4n but the doubleton j9 of diamonds look a ton more valuable

than they normally would and even though a spade lead might be devastating it is not easy to lead the

opps known 5 card suit 6n also has the advantage of having a chance if either spades or diamonds run

while a maybe safer 6d definitely needs the dia suit to behave and we are pretty sure p has only 5 since

they had an easy 3d bid over 2h:)

[Zelandakh]

My partnership agreement is that it is stronger than the jump to 3nt, general principle slower = better.

As was pointed out above, if you have this agreement then you use the ability to use 4SF as a means of picking up a 5-3 heart fit or 6-2 spade fit and then subsiding in 3NT should it not be there. That may be worth it if you have an alternative way of bidding those hand types but I would not want to lose them altogether - they are surely considerably more common than hands that want to show extras and play only NT. Sometimes slower means uncertainty rather than better. That would probably be the majority treatment in this auction.

[gnasher]

I don't understand 4nt being quantitative unless it's over 3nt. Y'all must be playing Kickback, Minorwood, Dollywood etc. anything but blackwood

I don't play Kickback, Minorwood, or AnyOtherNonsenseWood, but I think that all of these:

  1♠-2♦; 2♥-4NT

  1♠-2♦; 2♥-3♣; 4NT

  1♠-2♦; 2♥-3♣; 3any-4NT

are quantitative.

[fromageGB]

If you don't have the ability to show a strong hand with 4SF, maybe because it shows directional choice/uncertainty rather than strength, and you are in the situation where partner bids 3NT, you can use 4♣ as artificial. If for example North has not shows any particular point range, 4NT quantitative is a bit meaningless - what is good and what is bad? How does he know exactly how good you are to make that judgement?

 

Back in old days I successfully used 4♣ here as a point count ask with simple step responses starting with a 12 count. (12 or fewer bids the first step, 13 the next, etc.) Very crude, and I am not saying it is a good method, but if it is something you can add on without fundamentally altering your style to do things better, consider it. The idea is that if partner is happy in a freely bid 3NT, your additional values mean that a response up to 4NT is reasonably safe to play in 4NT, and if higher, you bid the slam.

 

It's no help with distribution, but partner has already made that decision.

[Codo]

I would bid

 

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 4 NT

6 NT

 

If you tell me that I have no forcing heart raise avaiable and need 4 NT as KC for hearts, I cannot help you, you have a hole in your system.

 

I would prefer

1♠ 2 ♦

2♥ 3♣

to hear about a possible red suit fit, but just if I have some safety about the continuation.