Six-five come alive?

[WellSpyder]

[hv=pc=n&e=sqt9753hqda9762c6&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=4h]133|200[/hv]

Game all, IMPs. RHO deals and opens 4♥.

 

Too dangerous to bid? Or too dangerous to pass?

[Fluffy]

too dangerous to pass, I would like a better hand to bid on but there is no way I am letting 4♥ buy it. If partner goes higher unsuccesfully I won't blame him.

[mikeh]

I pass, but with trepidation.

 

There is, imo, a lot to consider here altho I may be guilty of overthinking.

 

1. low in priority but still a valid concern is the possibility of going for a number when LHO holds the hand we'd like partner to hold.

 

2. Also low in priority is the chance that we belong in diamonds and can get there by passing (partner reopens with 4N), and not if we bid 4♠

 

3. Far greater, imo, is the chance that bidding now turns a likely plus into a minus or exchanges a minus on defence for an equivalent or worse minus on offence. Thus give partner a medium hand such as Axx xx Kxx AQJxx.

 

We rate to be plus on defence if he passes it out and to get a better plus in 4♠ if he reopens. However, if we bid 4♠, how can he pass? And what chance do we think we have at the 5-level?

 

4. How common are the hands where 4♠ is good (makes or good save) AND he can't reopen if we pass in tempo? My guess is relatively low, compared to the number of hands on which we overcall and bad things happen.

 

5. Will we miss a slam if I pass? Partner may have a great hand and be unable to move over 4♠ if he reopens, fearing a similar sort of hand without, say, the diamond Ace or the stiff heart.

 

I am perhaps biased by my personal experiences, and maybe my problem is that as partner I tend to choose aggression over conservatism when my partner bids here. If your partner tends to be conservative....if he'd pass 4♠ with Axx xx Kxx AQJxx or equivalent hands, then I think the scales tilt the other way.

 

 

I thought this was a good problem, btw.

[Lord Molyb]

when I have a worse hand than the pre-empt I tend to pass unless partner asks me to bid.

[MrAce]

[hv=pc=n&e=sqt9753hqda9762c6&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=4h]133|200[/hv]

Game all, IMPs. RHO deals and opens 4♥.

 

Too dangerous to bid? Or too dangerous to pass?

 

I would bid 4 ♠

[gnasher]

I'd bid 4♠. I don't want to defend 4♥ and I don't want to be dummy in 5♣. There is a risk that partner will take us too high, but he should give me a lot of leeway.

[wyman]

4♠ for me, with the caveat that this is a gut reaction and not a well thought out one. When I saw the hand, passing wasn't even a serious thought for me, which probably says that I'm way too aggressive, since Mike does even more than _think_ about pass, he actually _does_ pass. But he's Canadian, so... :P

[Lord Molyb]

4♠ for me, with the caveat that this is a gut reaction and not a well thought out one. When I saw the hand, passing wasn't even a serious thought for me, which probably says that I'm way too aggressive, since Mike does even more than _think_ about pass, he actually _does_ pass. But he's Canadian, so... :P

I consider pass obvious, and I thought I was aggressive :o

[MrAce]

There is a risk that partner will take us too high, but he should give me a lot of leeway.

 

Well said !

 

Pd should not be acting as if we jumped to 4 ♠ over 3 ♥. I wish there were more accurate ways of telling pd that we bid 4 spade with what we have or a stronger hand. But unfortunately, after preempts, especially 4 level preempts, we do not have that kind of luxury. I know it seems odd to bid 4♠ with a hand that would not have opened 1 ♠, but now that they opened 4♥ showing a (7)-8-9 card hearts and the fact that our hand indicates they have a very good chance of making it, besides another fact that we also can make without expecting too much from pd, makes me bid 4♠.

 

Each time i see a problem like that on BBF, and i believe BBF is full of that type of topics and decisions we face vs preempts, i remember other threads where people are too picky with their preempts and always have an excuse not to preempt (i have 2 aces, i have a void, i have a side 3 card major, i have a side 4 card major, i have too much controls...etc etc) Everyone has a different taste, but i personally prefer this type of opponents where they preempt rarely and do not put me in situations where bidding or passing both may be a disaster for me, or when they preempt, having a more precise picture of their hands which would help me in bidding - declarer play or defense. This is like having RHP (right hand pd) or LHP (left hand pd) or having 3 partners http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

[GreenMan]

This is like having RHP (right hand pd) or LHP (left hand pd) or having 3 partners http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

 

RHP, LHP, and CHO. :D

[gszes]

We need a different partner since we do not trust this current partner to

properly know when/how to balance over 4h p p -----Asking p to give you

some leeway is one thing but introducing a rotten moth eaten fleabag

5 card suit vul at the 4 level is asking for an 8 lane superhighway and even

worse spades isn't even our best suit. we might be going down a ton in

a lousy spade contract while we can make 7d (just a thought). I might

be willing to grant some leeway to someone that bids 4s with a hand

similar to AQJxx x xxxxx xx where we at least have something that

resembles an actual spade suit but with this particular collection it seems

more like madness to bid 4s. P will never again have a clue what to do

if we are willing to bid with this garbage just because it is our turn.

 

PASS

 

Just in case I wasn't clear and lets decide how to proceed after p

acts. BTW almost any partner that sees this collection of ick that

bid 4s will know you do not trust their pass out seat judgement one

iota and they may strongly consider finding someone that does.

 

pass = 10 4s = 2 (there are worse bids)

[mikestar13]

We need a different partner since we do not trust this current partner to

properly know when/how to balance over 4h p p -----Asking p to give you

some leeway is one thing but introducing a rotten moth eaten fleabag

5 card suit vul at the 4 level is asking for an 8 lane superhighway and even

worse spades isn't even our best suit. we might be going down a ton in

a lousy spade contract while we can make 7d (just a thought). I might

be willing to grant some leeway to someone that bids 4s with a hand

similar to AQJxx x xxxxx xx where we at least have something that

resembles an actual spade suit but with this particular collection it seems

more like madness to bid 4s. P will never again have a clue what to do

if we are willing to bid with this garbage just because it is our turn.

 

PASS

 

Just in case I wasn't clear and lets decide how to proceed after p

acts. BTW almost any partner that sees this collection of ick that

bid 4s will know you do not trust their pass out seat judgement one

iota and they may strongly consider finding someone that does.

 

pass = 10 4s = 2 (there are worse bids)

 

And old partner of mine used to say TYP (trust your partner). I 100% agree that you should trust partner to know how to balance.

[bigbenvic]

At this vulnerability I would pass in a heartbeat, just do not have the suit quality to bid at Red in this seat. Make it Green V Red and I have a tougher decision.

 

The question I have is that if you pass and it goes

(4♥) P (P) X

(P) ??

Now what. Is 4♠ an underbid?

[johnu]

Asking p to give you

some leeway is one thing but introducing a rotten moth eaten fleabag

5 card suit vul at the 4 level is asking for an 8 lane superhighway and even

worse spades isn't even our best suit.

 

Would a moth eaten fleabag 6 card suit make a difference to you? :P

[sfi]

Pass would simply not have occurred to me at the table, so I asked my notoriously conservative partner what he would do. He bid 4S without hesitation and considered pass an error.

 

Maybe it's something in the Australian air.

[MickyB]

4♠ in sleep

[paulg]

I tend to be more conservative than some in these situations but the sixth spade makes a big difference and I think it's a clear 4♠.

[WellSpyder]

Interesting that more people see this as a straightforward decision than a difficult one, but that those thinking it is straightforward are split between those thinking it is a straightforward pass and those thinking it is a straightforward 4♠. Personally, I thought it was tricky, but chose 4♠ at the table.

 

I also note that those who are worried about bidding are split between those who think they may go for a large penalty and those concerned that partner may take them too seriously and bid on. At the table is was the first of these dangers that was the problem:

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj84h84dk3cj842&w=s62haj6dt84ckqt97&n=shkt97532dqj5ca53&e=sqt9753hqda9762c6&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=4h4sdppp]399|300[/hv]

I'm not sure that the north hand would be everybody's idea of a 4♥ opening, but it netted +1100 on this occasion!

[ArtK78]

4♠ in sleep

WAKE UP!

 

I pass. :)

[rmnka447]

Pass, for now.

 

Any bid that I would make directly now takes a view of the hand which might or might not be right. If partner has cards, partner may play me for a much better hand and get us too high.

 

If partner finds a double, I can bid 4 ♠ knowing it's probably right. OTOH, if partner has the minors and bids 4 NT, I have an easy 5 ♦ bid.

[MrAce]

I request everyone to imagine this deal when LHO hand is exchanged with CHO hand http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

I bid 4♠ and went down a lot. So did most of the very good players in this topic. If the hands were exchanged it would be totally different story. A story that Gzsez will try to balance with AKJxx spades perhaps ? Then you can still flip his pd hand with his RHO, looking at an other disaster. They would all be % 100 compatible with the auction, decisions and outcomes.

 

But read my 2nd post, final part. Same cautious people would have never opened 4♥ with the hand our RHO did. We would have never faced this problem when our LHO holds AKJxx ♠ or when our pd holds them. We would be able to figure out in safer levels in a slow auction. would stay out of it with no fit and would bid it when we do have fit.

 

Cautious people won a lot of imps on this hand, and could be easily other way around if pd and LHO exchanged hands. Usually you don't fall in front of disaster trump stack and/or an obvious penalty double either. But their caution, winning passive action on this hand would probably not be a win, because their alike teammates would never open 4♥ at the other table. They just can not see the tons of hidden imps which are lost due to the passive approach. You just can not expect to win, when your side is constantly having to make decisions like this and other team does not. You can not expect to win or damage opponents by making only picture bid like preempts, or picture bid like actions over their preempts.

 

As you saw in this topic, even the best players in this forum went for a phone number. Something that would have never happened have they been left in their comfort zone.

 

Passing 4♥ is not a crime to me even though i am a 4♠ bidder. I can definitely understand that it is a decision which was made under pressure. We all knew we could fall in either side of the disaster line when we made our decision. Just don't come up with funny things like Gzsez did, and try to make a sense out of it vs a 4 level preempt. Things after a 4 level preempt are too complicated to make statements like Gzsez did. If i were him i would be more careful on what i say on a topic which world has not found a solution yet even though it has been an issue for a long time now. But then again i disagree to at least % 80 of what he says in general, not only this topic.

 

I pass, but with trepidation.

......

I thought this was a good problem, btw.

 

This says it all. If the problem is good, which i agree, then the answer is never as obvious as people show it to be.

[ArtK78]

I request everyone to imagine this deal when LHO hand is exchanged with CHO hand http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

I bid 4♠ and went down a lot. So did most of the very good players in this topic. If the hands were exchanged it would be totally different story. A story that Gzsez will try to balance with AKJxx spades perhaps ? Then you can still flip his pd hand with his RHO, looking at an other disaster. They would all be % 100 compatible with the auction, decisions and outcomes.

 

But read my 2nd post, final part. Same cautious people would have never opened 4♥ with the hand our RHO did. We would have never faced this problem when our LHO holds AKJxx ♠ or when our pd holds them. We would be able to figure out in safer levels in a slow auction. would stay out of it with no fit and would bid it when we do have fit.

 

Cautious people won a lot of imps on this hand, and could be easily other way around if pd and LHO exchanged hands. Usually you don't fall in front of disaster trump stack and an obvious penalty double either. But their caution, passive approach, trying to go for an average action is a losing action imo. Even their winning passive action on this hand would probably not be a win, because their alike teammates would never open 4♥ at the other table. They just can not see the tons of hidden imps which are lost due to the passive approach.

 

As you saw in this topic, even the best players in this forum went for a phone number. Something that would have never happened have they been left in their comfort zone.

 

Passing 4♥ is not a crime to me even though i am a 4♠ bidder. I can definitely understand that it is a decision which was made under pressure. We all knew we could fall in either side of the disaster line when we made our decision. Just don't come up with funny things like Gzsez did, and try to make a sense out of it vs a 4 level preempt. Things after a 4 level preempt are too complicated to make statements like Gzsez did. If i were him i would be more careful on what i say on a topic which world has not found a solution yet even though it has been an issue for a long time now. But then again i disagree to at least % 80 of what he says in general, not only this topic.

The main reason that I pass is that I am afraid that we will get too high, not that I will go for a number.

[MrAce]

The main reason that I pass is that I am afraid that we will get too high, not that I will go for a number.

 

This is a very legit concern and i have objection neither to this reasoning nor to your choice.

[Zelandakh]

I request everyone to imagine this deal when LHO hand is exchanged with CHO hand

If the hands are exchanged and we pass, would CHO not bid 4♠?

[gszes]

I request everyone to imagine this deal when LHO hand is exchanged with CHO hand http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

I bid 4♠ and went down a lot. So did most of the very good players in this topic. If the hands were exchanged it would be totally different story. A story that Gzsez will try to balance with AKJxx spades perhaps ? Then you can still flip his pd hand with his RHO, looking at an other disaster. They would all be % 100 compatible with the auction, decisions and outcomes.

 

But read my 2nd post, final part. Same cautious people would have never opened 4♥ with the hand our RHO did. We would have never faced this problem when our LHO holds AKJxx ♠ or when our pd holds them. We would be able to figure out in safer levels in a slow auction. would stay out of it with no fit and would bid it when we do have fit.

 

Cautious people won a lot of imps on this hand, and could be easily other way around if pd and LHO exchanged hands. Usually you don't fall in front of disaster trump stack and/or an obvious penalty double either. But their caution, winning passive action on this hand would probably not be a win, because their alike teammates would never open 4♥ at the other table. They just can not see the tons of hidden imps which are lost due to the passive approach. You just can not expect to win, when your side is constantly having to make decisions like this and other team does not. You can not expect to win or damage opponents by making only picture bid like preempts, or picture bid like actions over their preempts.

 

As you saw in this topic, even the best players in this forum went for a phone number. Something that would have never happened have they been left in their comfort zone.

 

Passing 4♥ is not a crime to me even though i am a 4♠ bidder. I can definitely understand that it is a decision which was made under pressure. We all knew we could fall in either side of the disaster line when we made our decision. Just don't come up with funny things like Gzsez did, and try to make a sense out of it vs a 4 level preempt. Things after a 4 level preempt are too complicated to make statements like Gzsez did. If i were him i would be more careful on what i say on a topic which world has not found a solution yet even though it has been an issue for a long time now. But then again i disagree to at least % 80 of what he says in general, not only this topic.

 

 

 

This says it all. If the problem is good, which i agree, then the answer is never as obvious as people show it to be.

 

interesting choice of percentages I gave 4s credit as being right approximately 20% of the time---(my version of a super highway) and one can indeed expect to win

if one avoids these kinds of incredible disasters. Note that passing and switching lho and cho hands will allow our partnership to get to an easy 5s bid even if the

opps decide to stop in 4 (I would raise p 4s bid in po seat with this hand). The point is that passers can have it both ways and the bidders just plain need to not only

be lucky on the card layout but have a psychic for a partner since that is the only way they will know when you actually have values and when you are umm err

"stretching" a bit too much.