forcing pass gone wrong

[manudude03]

[hv=pc=n&w=shajt98d74cqj9853&e=sak84hkq75432dckt&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=3d4h5d6h7dpp7hppdppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Here's a disaster hand I had last night. MPs scoring. How do you assign this one? (Even if you want to bid 3H with the East hand, you didn't have a natural 3H available- sucks I know....)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 not being able to bid 3H ... does this really matter?

Would this mean, S would have only bid 4D, instead of 5D?

#2 I dont like the 7H bid, ..., West coul have invited the grand,

over 5D, he choose to settle for the small slam, over 7D he bids

7H? Why the change of mind?

I guess East could have Xed, but he has no idea, if bidding 6H was

a stretch or not, and he has a reasonable hand.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Lord Molyb]

You play fishbein? What's that?

[manudude03]

A convention for those who don't feel competing in a higher ranking suit is important :)

[Zelandakh]

You play fishbein? What's that?

Fishbein is: X = penalty; next suit bid = takeout.

 

A variation that I have played is FILM (Fishbein Incorporating Lower Minor):

Over 3♣ or 3♠: Standard Fishbein (3♦ for takeout over 3♣; 4♣ for takeout over 3♠)

 

Over 3♦:

X = penalty

3♥ = takeout with 4+ hearts

4♣ = takeout without 4 hearts

 

Over 3♥:

X = penalty

3♠ = takeout with 4+ spades

4♣ = takeout without 4 spades

 

Lower Minor is the same as Fishbein over 3♣ or 3♠, and 4♣ for takeout over 3 of a red suit

 

The other popular method for countering preempts from this era was X3X. In that the takeout bid was X over 3m or 4m, but 3NT over 3M. All of these pretty much died out ~30 years ago.

[Trinidad]

I think that West's 6♥ bid was slightly lazy. If West would have cued 5♠ instead he would have bid his whole hand at once. He would not have felt that he had anything in reserve after East's forcing pass and he would have doubled 7♦ (and indicated the right lead too).

 

As it was, West did feel that he had something left (nice spade controls) and had painted himself into a corner. And since you can't paint yourself out of a corner...

 

Rik

[Fluffy]

Unpasssed hands don't do cuebids with unbid suits

[Trinidad]

Unpasssed hands don't do cuebids with unbid suits

Fortunately, I have a different rule: When partner says that his major is going to be trump, it is going to be trump.

 

A jump to 4♥ shows a GOSH: That yells so loud that hearts are going to be trump that I am afraid to introduce a new suit even on the next board.

 

Rik

[ArtK78]

The forcing pass shows first round control of diamonds and interest in bidding the grand. West can't count on East having first round control of both black suits as well (East can't know of West's spade void). So his side could be off a club trick. West should take the sure plus by doubling.

[Hanoi5]

I find it amazing that Fishbein still exists. It's like someone playing Cobra.

 

I blame 100% West unless there is an agreement about the pass or jump we don't know about.

[Lord Molyb]

I find it amazing that Fishbein still exists. It's like someone playing Cobra.

 

I blame 100% West unless there is an agreement about the pass or jump we don't know about.

pass over 7♦ is forcing?

[ArtK78]

pass over 7♦ is forcing?

Of course pass over 7♦ is forcing. You can't play 7♦ undoubled on this auction.

[gszes]

yes indeed a grand slam is possible before seeing both hands but both partners

(west more egregiously) overbid some and it would have required a ton of luck

for 7h to be right.

 

East sort of has to realize their 4h bid was a tad on the weak side. West needs p to have

a lot of highly specific cards to consider making 7h. The opponents did a great job of

taking up bidding space and made exploration impossible. Under those conditions, it

is usually better to take what you can unless you have a lot of extra values that you

have not been able to disclose yet. While east has the dia void they are actually somewhat

underpowered for a 4h bid (they might well have chosen another call if 3h was available).

 

This means the pass of 7d was probably not a great idea as it encourages a partner to go for

7 expecting you to have more power and first round control of diamonds. That is why I gave

east 25% of the blame. I am sure they were happy to be able to make their forcing pass

w/o taking into consideration the message they were sending p aside from 1st round dia

control.

 

West at 75% was just plain too aggressive. They needed p to have too many specific cards

for 7h to be right. Even if they were taken in somewhat by east pass they should have

realized their 6h bid was already done with speculation so taking the plunge to 7 merely

east showed first round dia control (we were assuming they had at worst 2nd round

control for our 6h bid) is just too much. Be happy with x of 7d and congratulate the

opps on good barrage bidding and save your grands for times you have better control

of the bidding:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Fluffy]

I would like to hear all those blame adjudgers with the black suits reversed.

[Trinidad]

I would like to hear all those blame adjudgers with the black suits reversed.

With East's black suits reversed:

[hv=pc=n&w=shajt98d74cqj9853&e=skthkq75432dcak74&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=3d4h5d5s7d(or%206%21D)7hppp]266|200[/hv]

With West's black suits reversed:

[hv=pc=n&w=sqj9753hajt98d74c&e=sak84hkq75432dckt&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=3d4h5d6c7d(or%206%21D)7hppp]266|200[/hv]

And -for completeness- as it was:

[hv=pc=n&w=shajt98d74cqj9853&e=sak84hkq75432dckt&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=3d4h5d5s7dp(or%20X)pdppp]266|200[/hv]

 

BTW, I do not think that West's 6♥ was a huge error where it is blatantly obvious that it is the wrong bid. But I do think that 5♠ would have been more accurate.

 

Rik

[Codo]

Hi Rik,

 

as 3 ♥ is not avaiable, 4 ♥ is NO clear statement about trumps, so I agree with Gonzalo, that 5 ♠ sounds like spades.

 

For the bidding: I dislike 4 ♥, but I see no good alternative in the given scenario. I like the rest of the bidding, ...better luck next time.

[helene_t]

It's a bit unlucky but I think W can foresee a high likelihood of a club loser. Yes, East's black suits could have been reversed but in that case there is a risk of a club ruff. East needs a quite specific club holding for 7♥ to be safe.

OTOH I can sorta understand W, he has no defence so if the field is in 6♥, defending 7♦ will be bad, and it might even be bad compared to a field that is in 4♥. So you might as well hope for the grand.

 

It didn't occur to me that fishbein was to blame. But since an implication of fishbein is that 4♥ does not set trumps, W can't cuebid.

 

The blame must somehow be shared between West, Fishbein and bad luck. In any case, East bid correctly.