A wishlist for vugraph comments ?

[Chamaco]

Hi all, I don't know whether the following is a good idea or not, however, here it goes.

 

In the past there have been - among the BBO audience - different views on the quality of some viewgraph shows.

 

Some people have expressed disappointment fo some issues (e.g. some would like more focus on technical issues).

 

On the other hand, Vugraph commentators are volunteers, and in my opinion, it is not so nice to make bad comments AFTER a broadcast where they devoted their times.

 

Also, very often commentators do not have any idea of what the auduience would expect from the comments, and therefore they will base the comments on the basis of their feelings, which will be good or poor according to different occasions.

 

Therefore, I wonder if maintaining a wishlist here on the BB Forum would help: this would be a wish from the audience, and a quick read by the commentators BEFORE the actual Vugraph show might be helpful to them ?

Perhaps other BBO users, even with different tastes from mine, may express their views ?

 

Anyway, I will start with my wishes below:

 

1) I will not focus on the analysis of difficult hands: this is usually taken over with enthusiasm by every commentator, because they find it challenging

 

2) I would rather try to focus on "apparently trivial" hands. Way too often some commentators dismiss quickly a hand as the cards appear as "a dull partscore" or "a push", wihout going into the details, and the rest of the hand features only some chit chat totally unrelated with bridge (cokes, football, etc), or loosely related.

 

In virtually all of these hands there is the possibility to use the time to

 

(BIDDING SECTION)

- try to describe different bidding methods of the pairs, and anticipate the potential bidding battle nsuing with different methods

- try to describe explicitly the hand evaluation process(e.g. when pair A+B misses or bids a hard game or slam, describe which is the mental process of the expert to take the correct choice)

 

(CARD PLAY SECTION)

- try to describe (even basic) suit combinations, and deviation from assumed standad play

- point out potential defensive falsecards and in general, any form of potential deception techinque by declarer or defenders

- try to describe the inferences done by the expert for choosing the lead or a the moment of a critical switch

 

I want to stress here that I do not expect ALL of the above scheme being followed all the time: commenting is hard and I know it, and I am VERY thankful to all the volunteers.

Also, I do not expect all commentators to always get the hand right (especially in such little time).

I only want to say that I enjoy much more Vugraphs where the commentator tries constantly to make technical comments (even with mistakes), rather than those in which commentators just dwell too much (in my opinion) in jokes between friends.

 

I hope no one gets offended, it is not my intention :-)

[luke warm]

you have some good ideas, mauro... i've never said anything critical about any commentators, mainly because i have no room to be critical... sure, i have my favorites, like all of us do...

 

i agree, i'd like to have more commentary on why a certain suit was led (what thought processes, etc), or why one switched to another suit.. system comments, ie. " this might be hard to bid playing *whatever* " ...

 

i do like some of the asides by some commentators, some are very witty and entertaining... but like you, i appreciate the fact that they're all willing to volunteer their time, they sure don't have to

[Walddk]

I am pleased to see that some of you take interest in the work and performance of our many vugraph commentators. We have got a list of 138 (sic!) people, and for obvious reasons one cannot expect all of those to be top professional commentators.

 

In my opinion, a good commentator is a person who delivers a mixture of analysises, educational points and practical information. If this can be achieved in an entertaining way at the same time, it will just add to the enjoyment of the spectators.

 

Some of us tend to forget that most specs are intermediates/advanced and that we take too much for granted. As I see it, nothing is too easy, but something is too difficult! None of us is perfect by any means, but we actually try our best every time.

 

As you may understand, it is a very demanding job to be a commentator - often for several hours non stop. We are all volunteers, and quite frequently we are there despite the ungodly hours to some. I am trying to coordinate all this in the best possible way, but I know that I do not always succeed.

 

Please do not get me wrong, we are not upset when someone suggests that we do things differently. On the contrary, constructive criticism is welcomed. We are prepared to listen and act accordingly.

 

I am happy that Chamaco started this thread and I will read all posts with great interest. You are never too old to learn, and we are obviously willing to change a few things if the audience wants us to.

 

Roland Wald

BBO Vugraph Coordinator

[Finch]

I watch the BBO vugraph occasionally, though I never play on BBO. Oddly, the last time I watched (a bit of the first Camrose weekend) my biggest problem was the number of commentators. It's a while ago now, so I can't remember exactly, but I think I remember Tom Townsend, David Gold, Roland, Jim Hay, Steve Edginton + at least one possibly two others (David Burn? and some-one else whose name I didn't recognise).

 

That's overkill. We got more than one conversation going on at once, and there was little added value over having only 2 or 3 of them. Is there any way to spread out your experts over a longer period, or give them shorter shifts?

[Walddk]

I watch the BBO vugraph occasionally, though I never play on BBO. Oddly, the last time I watched (a bit of the first Camrose weekend) my biggest problem was the number of commentators. It's a while ago now, so I can't remember exactly, but I think I remember Tom Townsend, David Gold, Roland, Jim Hay, Steve Edginton + at least one possibly two others (David Burn? and some-one else whose name I didn't recognise).

 

That's overkill. We got more than one conversation going on at once, and there was little added value over having only 2 or 3 of them. Is there any way to spread out your experts over a longer period, or give them shorter shifts?

"That's overkill. We got more than one conversation going on at once, and there was little added value over having only 2 or 3 of them. Is there any way to spread out your experts over a longer period, or give them shorter shifts?"

 

......

 

Good point Frances. My philosophy (and Fred's too for that matter) is that less than 3 is boring, 3-4 (occasionally 5) is ideal, and (5)6 or more is chaotic.

 

I usually schedule 3-4 commentators per table, but it does happen that we are more, especially when experts with local knowledge turn up unexpectedly. Your point is a valid one, and I agree completely:

 

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

 

Roland Wald

[hotShot]

The commentators are usually doing a great job.

 

It would be a great help to them, and to us in the audience, if they could post a link to the players convention cards, and a link to some data about the players, if these are available. This link should be visible all the time.

 

This way they woun't have to repeat those links very often, and when we join as a kib,we will have that information available immediatly.

 

I know there is not enough space to do that in the table view, but perhaps the links could be added on the page where the vuegraph tables are listed.

[fred]

Something we've been meaning to do for a while is to add some kind of "tourney information" button in the Vugraph Theatre. Some of the type of info we might display would be:

 

- links to official tournament web page

- links to convention cards of players

- information about the commentators on duty

- sponsors' logos, links to their web site, etc...

 

Screen space is a bit of a problem right now, but I am sure we could find some place to fit this in. This sort of change falls into the "would be nice" category as far as I am concerned. There are still some "mission critical" type changes that we have to do before we move on to "would be nice" type things.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[cherdano]

How about an extra window (like the News window)? I would certainly like to have a look at these things also while I am watching the VueGraph (during a boring hand etc.), without having to leave the table.

 

I would also have liked the result service for Istanbul much better if it had been in a separate window.

[fred]

How about an extra window (like the News window)? I would certainly like to have a look at these things also while I am watching the VueGraph (during a boring hand etc.), without having to leave the table.

 

I would also have liked the result service for Istanbul much better if it had been in a separate window.

Agree - the way I see this working is by using a separate window.

 

Probably we would have done this for the Istanbul facility as well, but we had not originally planned to let the BBO membership see this information (it was meant for the live audience at the playing site). We decided to make the info available to everyone on BBO only a couple of weeks before the tournament and by then it was too late to redesign things so that a separate window would be used.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Walddk]

5 posts (except for Fred's and mine) in over a month. We must do something right!

 

Roland

[kgr]

First of all:

The Vugraphs are great tool to follow some international bridge! And yes - Roland - you are doing somethin right. B)

 

What do you think of questions asked by the spectators to the commentator:

- Are these questions intersting for the commentators?

- Sometimes I get a private reply on a question while I think it would be interesting for everybody (I could of course be wrong on this). I think a private reply is not necessary: Either the question is not intersting and you ignore it, either you comment the question to everybody.

- Maybe it would be a good idea to stimulate good interaction between commentators and spectators to have one of the commentator to send questions to. He can then filter similar/interesting questions (I don't know how many questions/comments you get, so not sure if this is possible or a good idea).

[Chamaco]

- Maybe it would be a good idea to stimulate good interaction between commentators and spectators to have one of the commentator to send questions to. He can then filter similar/interesting questions (I don't know how many questions/comments you get, so not sure if this is possible or a good idea).

I agree.Being able to read somewhere (either on a Yahoo messenger chat window or anywhere else) the questions raise by specs could be of help to both commentators and specs.

 

Specs could be free to write their questions without cluttering the Vugraph chat window.

 

Commentators would see in real time what intelligent or dumb questions are going through the mind of specs, and tune accordingly their comments: a great feedback tools.

[Walddk]

(I don't know how many questions/comments you get, so not sure if this is possible or a good idea).

This is virtually impossible. I can only speak for myself of course, but it would be a hopeless task to respond to all the private chat messages I get during a vugraph broadcast. Believe me, I get tons.

 

Generally speaking, I don't mind at all, on the contrary since some of the messages contain useful information and questions. The most interesting ones (imho) I usually pass on publicly to all commentators present - or I ask the questions and reply myself.

 

I know that the same applies to other commentators. Those with +++ in their profiles can receive private chat (I don't need the characters because I'm yellow and therefore able to get private chat regardless).

 

The dialogue between specs and commentators is important in my view. We are not oracles, and we make mistakes, so it's perfectly legitimate to tell us when we err. Most of the commentators are prepared to listen and even apologise if they do or say something wrong.

 

Having said that, however, it's very difficult to concentrate on the auction/play and private chat at the same time, so more often than not the sender doesn't get a message back. No offence intended, as I have typed in my profile.

 

Roland

[kgr]

- Maybe it would be a good idea to stimulate good interaction between commentators and spectators to have one of the commentator to send questions to. He can then filter similar/interesting questions (I don't know how many questions/comments you get, so not sure if this is possible or a good idea).

I agree.Being able to read somewhere (either on a Yahoo messenger chat window or anywhere else) the questions raise by specs could be of help to both commentators and specs.

 

Specs could be free to write their questions without cluttering the Vugraph chat window.

 

Commentators would see in real time what intelligent or dumb questions are going through the mind of specs, and tune accordingly their comments: a great feedback tools.

Interesting to have it in a seperate window. Commentators can do with it what they want or can look at it if they have time. (Would be good to have an automatic comment in it when a new hand starts: "Hand xx starting")

It only risk that you will get two lines of comments (commentators and this seperate window).

[Chamaco]

Commentators can do with it what they want or can look at it if they have time.

Exactly.

The main plus of such a feedback tool is that he commentators can decide if/when they want to look at the specs questions, according to the moment.

 

When they are busy concentrating on the hand, analyzing, they will not watch the fedback window; but maybe, in other moments, when they are less busy, they might as well decide to have a look at it.

 

All this would happen without private messages to the commentators AND without cluttering the main Vugraph chat windows, reserved to the commentaries.

 

All in all, if not an improvement, it sounds at least a "no lose" option :-) (and bridge players like to "combine chances" B) )

[Walddk]

All this would happen without private messages to the commentators AND without cluttering the main Vugraph chat windows, reserved to the commentaries.

Sounds like a good idea and would no doubt be very helpful for the commentators. As it is now, it's sometimes irritating to get the private messages. They take up room on the screen, of course.

 

However, I have a funny feeling that this will be put on Fred's "would-be-nice" list, because other issues are more important to deal with.

 

Roland

[Chamaco]

However, I have a funny feeling that this will be put on Fred's "would-be-nice" list, because other issues are more important to deal with.

Roland,

I agree with you, and I am sure Fred and Uday are busy into other more important stuff.

 

All I am saying is that such a feature can be used RIGHT NOW with no further efforts ! :)

 

Specs and commentator can use the available tools from Yahoo Messenger or MSN Messenger.B)

No further effort from the BBO developers. :D

[csdenmark]

My compliments for what has been achieved until now. I also appreciate to see an open mind to suggestions for improvements.

 

Events from Poland has a remarkably higher quality than events from elsewhere. The polish commentators has a personal knowledge and relationship to the actors. Meaning they know the systems, personal habits and general interpretations based on local conventions. Something similar I noticed as Jan Jansma was on in recent event from The Hague.

 

I understand quite well it can be very difficult to have the right persons available for such. In modern bridge the features of competition and defense are those which are on pressure. Therefore a good knowledge is needed to provide substantial information. This is important to all systems but of crucial importance when strong systems are on. I have noticed Roland is trying to read several of the systems which are on agenda from convention cards. He therefore knows exactly how timeconsuming and how difficult it is to figure out a system with notes. Well informed guides are urgent needed to help the audience.

 

It is very difficult to comment on strong systems like Meckwell, Hamway, Auken/von Arnim, Lanzarotti/Burrati, Blakset/Bruun, Bertheau/Nystrøm, Aa/Grotheim, Sontag/Weichsel etc. without special knowledge. I have noticed some of the commentators are more vital when such are on than others, fx. Mike Hargreaves, Chris Compton, Larry Cohen, David Burn are some I remember right now. The poles fulfills normally all my requirements.

[joker_gib]

Dear Fred, Roland, Uday,

 

Maybe basic but can be done immediately :

 

Why not post the link to tournament results, CC, players .... in the Vugraph schedule web page

 

Alain

[Walddk]

Dear Fred, Roland, Uday,

 

Maybe basic but can be done immediately :

 

Why not post the link to tournament results, CC, players .... in the Vugraph schedule web page

 

Alain

We have done that on rare occasions. The problem is that we get most of the appropriate links very late, sometimes not at all. If only we had the links when we post the tournaments on the vugraph schedule page, it would not be a problem (read: extra work), but it is if we have to do this every time a new web site becomes available.

 

I know what I am talking about. Have a look at

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/online/vg.html

 

Only a few hours I ago did I learn that Australia and Finland also would like to be squeezed in from the 22nd to the 25th March. 4 major events in April are not listed yet either.

 

Do you believe me when I tell you that we have a lot to do as it is without having to add even more?

 

Roland

[pdmunro]

When I watch a sport/game, I don't want to know the outcome in advance. For me, it takes away from the excitement to be told that there is a makeable game in 4S on a finesse. Or that this cannot make, because of the bad trump split.

 

When I kibitz a tournament on Vugraph, I only look at one player's cards. I ignore the expert commentary, if they are giving away too much about the hand.

 

I think about the decisions that one player has to make. It's interesting that any hand usually has various bidding options. What one seems best for this situation?

 

I do change seats occaionally. For instance, to see the play in a slam from declarer's viewpoint.

 

My ideal BBO expert commentary would be one that looked over one player's shoulder and tried to get inside his mind. That showed me how to count the cards. That found the best defence.

 

I just saw a swindle by an Italian expert at a table I was kibitzing. I would jump out of my seat with excitement if any expert could have predicted that play.

[joker_gib]

Do you believe me when I tell you that we have a lot to do as it is without having to add even more?

Of course I believe you and let me again thank you for all the good and appreciated work you do for the vugraph ! B)

 

Alain

[csdenmark]

My compliments Gerben!

 

Yesterday I noticed you really did your outmost to explain the features of Burrati/Lanzarotti to the audience.