5-level asking

[hautbois]

First the hand bringing up the question.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqt43h65daktcakj&n=skj987652h32d32c2&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=4sp]266|200[/hv]

 

Partnership is already on board with 5♠ small slam ask and 5NT grand slam force. Unfortunately the suit with trouble is hearts.

 

My faulty memory believes small slam ask can apply in suits other than trumps, but I can't find a write up about the treatment. For instance, the auction 1♠ or 2♠ - pass - 5♥ should be asking for first or second round control in hearts, agreeing spades as trump. The cheapest level of hearts would have been forcing, allowing a delayed 5♥ to ask with hearts as trump.

 

Water gets muddier after a 3 or 4-level opener.

 

It would be great if 5♥ were asking about hearts in this auction and I can't think of many hands that would want to bid over the opening 4♠ unless they're looking for a spade slam, but I don't know what to search for or where to get details.

[ahydra]

No need to search or get details, just agree with partner. :)

 

In absence of agreement, 5C/5D/5H should probably be cuebids (and hence implying a lack of control somewhere), so South could bid 5D and North should get the message.

 

ahydra

[jdeegan]

:P In the absence of some sort of silver bullet heart asking bid understanding with partner, and nobody really has that, you have a problem that has only an imperfect solution. 4NT control asking (RKC or ordinary Blackwood) with a small doubleton heart is just plain wrong. 5♠ asks for trumps, and you already know the answer you will get to that question. Imo, best is a 5♣ cue bid. If you get a 5♥ cue bid response, then bid 6♠. Otherwise settle for 5♠.

 

A second thought, if partner does cue bid 5♥ over your 5♣, you might consider cueing back with 6♦ playing with an expert. That way you have a chance to get to a makeable seven if partner has the ♥ace.

[marcD]

Not sure what is standard in the US . Here, most people would interpret 5x as an asking bid (the logic being you cannot expect the preemptor to have too many outiside controls and his partner is unlikely to go slamming missing controls in 2 suits). The tricky one is 4♠ over 4♥ (to play or asking bid ?)

If 5x positive cue bid is standard where you play, it would seem a better idea to bid 5♣ as 5♦ seems to imply you are missing the club control

[jdeegan]

Not sure what is standard in the US . Here, most people would interpret 5x as an asking bid (the logic being you cannot expect the preemptor to have too many outiside controls and his partner is unlikely to go slamming missing controls in 2 suits). The tricky one is 4♠ over 4♥ (to play or asking bid ?)

If 5x positive cue bid is standard where you play, it would seem a better idea to bid 5♣ as 5♦ seems to imply you are missing the club control

:P I can see the obvious merit in an asking bid approach. I guess it comes down to which approach is the more useful. Maybe a simulation could answer this question.

[nigel_k]

No need to search or get details, just agree with partner. :)

 

In absence of agreement, 5C/5D/5H should probably be cuebids (and hence implying a lack of control somewhere), so South could bid 5D and North should get the message.

 

ahydra

I agree with cue bidding, but if my partner bid 5♦ I would get the message that partner has no club control and would bid slam with the North hand.

[DJNeill]

See Kokish-Kraft notes on http://www.bridgewithdan.com/systems . He's a great theorist.

 

Thanks,

Dan

[hautbois]

See Kokish-Kraft notes on http://www.bridgewithdan.com/systems . He's a great theorist.

 

Thank you.

 

I'm not sure I appreciate the wisdom of step responses over the asking bid. I expected 5NT to show Kx(x) control to right side NT for matchpoints. I'll need to think through the possibilities.

[jdeegan]

Thank you.

 

I'm not sure I appreciate the wisdom of step responses over the asking bid. I expected 5NT to show Kx(x) control to right side NT for matchpoints. I'll need to think through the possibilities.

:P No offense, but right siding a highly putative if not totally impossible 6 NT contract is, imo, a bit too much to worry about in this crowded auction. The spade contract is already right sided. The prospect of, maybe, getting to a makeable small slam is objective numero uno. Somehow, with luck, the rather remote prospect of bidding a makeable grand slam has to be next.

 

This whole situation boils down to whether asking bids or telling bids are the percentage way to go in this auction. Maybe the French are right. Almost 100 years of bridge history argues against this, but, as far as I can see, that view could easily be wrong.

[fromageGB]

MarcD has to be right. Responder must be strong, and opener must be weak, so without prior agreement I take a new suit as asking for a stopper. Including 4♠ after 4♥ if I am not playing kickback, or 4NT if you agree a kickback inversion.