Two hand evaluation questions

[luis]

#1

All Vulnerable.

 

Your hand is:

Qxxx

Qxx

AKxxx

x

 

Your pd opens 1d meaning 11-15 precision style, 11-13 if balanced, you play 14-16 when vulnerable.

If you had to choose would you say that you have a game invitational hand or a game forcing hand? Please imagine that you have only those options and pick one, why?

 

#2

Vulnerable vs not

Your hand is:

Kxx

Jxx

Qxxx

QJx

 

RHO opens a weak 2h, you pass and LHO jumps to 4H, pd bids 4NT for minors. Do you bid 5d or 6d? Or something else?? Why?

[whereagles]

1) Invitational, definitely.

 

2) Obviously a great hand for the bidding. But I think it's a little bit too much to play pard for Ax x AKxxx AKxxx, so I'll settle for 5 CLUBS. Clubs in case pard has some sort of super diam/spade two-suiter that can play at the 5-level alone, in which case he'll switch to 5D and I'll happily raise to 6.

[pbleighton]

1) Invitational, unless 1D-1S-2S, in which case I jump to 4S, and hope.

2) 5D. One king, no aces. Whereagles, why do you think pd has spades?

 

Peter

[whereagles]

Whereagles, why do you think pd has spades?

Well, it depends on what you arranged with pard, but think of this. What would be

 

2H.....pass..4H..4NT

pass...5C...pass..5D

 

a diamond cue on the way to 6C? Maybe, but why not some monster like

 

AQJxxx

x

AKxxx

A

 

A direct 4S over 4H seems a bit wimpy to me on this hand, and 5NT is probably an overbid. So the middle line is 4NT + pull 5C to 5D showing a monster with 11 playing tricks :D

[pbleighton]

Luis stated "pd bids 4NT for minors".

 

Peter

[inquiry]

#1 if only a choice between game force and invite, I choose game force. As for why, I have a very powerful hand in support of diamonds. One assumes that if partner is short in diamnods, he will have poor clubs (else 2♣, so in that case my major suit queens are gold. Otherwise he has diamonds.

 

#2. Your partner has decided to force to the five level at dangerous vulnerabilty, and your cards (both minor queens, spade King) rate to fit nicely. Unfortuantely, if you need a finessee to make slam, it will be off-side. Add to that you lack any first round control. I would bid only 5♦ unless my partner is a know timid bidder.

 

Ben

[Free]

1) if a game invitational bid would make opener show his shape, I'd go for that (so I can make a better decision later). If not, then I'll just treat this as a GF hand.

 

2) 5♦

[pclayton]

#1 Opposite a short diamond this is a invitational hand. Lets see if we can find a fit before we barge into 3N.

 

#2 Partner bid under the gun with 4N. Don't hang him; just bid 5. K♠ might be worth something but may not be. Good case of staying fixed. If pard just needs one card from you, pard can bid 6 himself.

[inquiry]

If pard just needs one card from you, pard can bid 6 himself.

Well.. i bid 5♦ too.. but partner is not getting one card from you, he is getting three... Surely both minor queens are "useful" cards...almost gold. The spade king is likely nice too

[luis]

To make things interesting any of you is considering how likely it is for them to defend to 5h or 6h if you bid 5d or 6d ?

Any of the 5d bidders is "walking the dog" intending to bid 6d if they defend to 5h?

It's interesting from a strategy point of view.

[whereagles]

Luis stated "pd bids 4NT for minors".

Yeah, I know... thing is we all agree with pard that "4NT is for the minors", but end up using it with other hands. This is more obvious if it's

 

2S pass 4S 4NT

 

Anyway, if I know pard never bids 4NT with spades, then 5D is the obvious bid.

[pclayton]

#1

All Vulnerable.

 

Your hand is:

Qxxx

Qxx

AKxxx

x

 

Your pd opens 1d meaning 11-15 precision style, 11-13 if balanced, you play 14-16 when vulnerable.

Luis - I thought I had a case of deja-vu today. I was looking in my February '04 BW and Challenge the Champs #8 had:

 

AKxx, AKx, Txxxx, x opposite: Qxx, Qxxx, AKxxx, x.

 

If you evaluate the hand as a GF (perhaps on the 2nd round), you might get to the excellent 6♦.

 

We bid to 5♦ on 1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦-2♥-3♦-3♥-3♠-4♣-5♦. Oh well.

[Fluffy]

#1 Not sure about your ranges, but this is an opening to me, and opening opposite opening used to be game, nowadays it is changing *sigh*, after all think of it very close but will stick to invitational because our fit is in a minor, if I could be 100% sure of major fit game is on.

 

#2 5♦ and pray to make.

[flytoox]

The first hand is still undefined. I dont think it is very meaningful at this stage to say this hand is gf or invitational. YOu need to see the development of the auction to reevaluate your hand. At this stage, start with 1S, and take it as invitational.

 

Regarding the second hand, I think 5D is enough. If pd has a really good hand, he can raise to six. If we passed 5D and opp come in with 5H, I think we should dbl, if we think our judgement of passing 5D is correct.

[inquiry]

I am surprised so many seem to think if forced to choose between invite or GF, they would go invite with this hand. This is a very good hand in support of diamonds. Phil gives a pair of similar hands where he failed to bid slam:

AKxx, AKx, Txxxx, x opposite: Qxx, Qxxx, AKxxx, x.

 

If you are a follower of ZAR (well few are) the slam should suggest itself early in the bidding (easy to say, but hard to bid a slam in a suit you open with ten high)... but.....West hand starts at 33 zar points and his partner forces to minor suit game, it becomes easy to see slam is at least a possible result, and in fact, you probably should make stab at seven (being off an ace puts the stop to that kind of thoughts)...

 

1D - 1H

1S - 2D (artificial game force)...

2H - 3D (diamonds, forcing to game)

thinking slam now.. .see why

 

What do we have here? Opener starts with 33, he gets two bonus points for fitting honor in partners suit. That is 35. East starts with 27, gets two more for AK of diamonds, and two for singleton club and extra lenght in diamonds (more than four). So East is up to 31, more than enough to force to game, and he has bonus if he wants to add point for "fitting" spade queen in HIS partners second suit. IF EAST has enough to force to 5 diamonds (in theory, five level needs 57 points, so west can think his partner has in the range of 31 points.. his partner's 31 plus his 35 is 66, more than enough for small slam, and approaching what is needed for grand slam. But of course... nobody uses Zar points... but like I said, this is an excellent hand in support of diamonds.

 

Ben

[HeartA]

The first hand is still undefined. I dont think it is very meaningful at this stage to say this hand is gf or invitational. YOu need to see the development of the auction to reevaluate your hand. At this stage, start with 1S, and take it as invitational.

 

Regarding the second hand, I think 5D is enough. If pd has a really good hand, he can raise to six. If we passed 5D and opp come in with 5H, I think we should dbl, if we think our judgement of passing 5D is correct.

Agree with Hongjun.

[cherdano]

#1 if only a choice between game force and invite, I choose game force. As for why, I have a very powerful hand in support of diamonds. One assumes that if partner is short in diamnods, he will have poor clubs (else 2♣, so in that case my major suit queens are gold. Otherwise he has diamonds.

I don't see why. I understand this partnership would open 1D on all 11-13 counts with 3=3=2=5 shape. 2♣ promises 6 cards or a 4card major in precision style, doesn't it?

 

Of course assuming this shape is a little pessimistic. Assume the bidding goes 1♦-1♠-1NT. Now partner will have 3-4 diamonds on average. Gives a 8-9 card fit opposite a light opener, and we have 27 ZAR points. That's close to but not quite enough for the 5-level, I would think. For 3NT, I have excellent 11 points opposite 11-13 -- still a very good invitation for me.

[inquiry]

#1 if only a choice between game force and invite, I choose game force. As for why, I have a very powerful hand in support of diamonds. One assumes that if partner is short in diamnods, he will have poor clubs (else 2♣, so in that case my major suit queens are gold. Otherwise he has diamonds.

I don't see why. I understand this partnership would open 1D on all 11-13 counts with 3=3=2=5 shape. 2♣ promises 6 cards or a 4card major in precision style, doesn't it?

 

Of course assuming this shape is a little pessimistic. Assume the bidding goes 1♦-1♠-1NT. Now partner will have 3-4 diamonds on average. Gives a 8-9 card fit opposite a light opener, and we have 27 ZAR points. That's close to but not quite enough for the 5-level, I would think. For 3NT, I have excellent 11 points opposite 11-13 -- still a very good invitation for me.

The condition of the question is you HAD to chose between game force and invite on one bid. Simple as that, so approach forcing, (strong game invite), etc are not avaliable.. .nor is make a temporizing bid and then decide.l Of course, few bid this way in the real world...but if forced to choose... I choose game force. Feel free to choose something else, but try to stick to luis's constraint on your choice.

 

Ben

[Chamaco]

#1

Qxxx

Qxx

AKxxx

x

 

If you had to choose would you say that you have a game invitational hand or a game forcing hand? Please imagine that you have only those options and pick one, why?

 

GF because 5 card suit headed by AK; even opposite a weak NT, it is conceivable to score -in 3NT - 4D, 1 C, and 2 in each major.

E.g. in worse case one of those infamous Meckwell 22 hcp 3NT

 

#2

Vulnerable vs not

Your hand is:

Kxx

Jxx

Qxxx

QJx

 

RHO opens a weak 2h, you pass and LHO jumps to 4H, pd bids 4NT for minors. Do you bid 5d or 6d? Or something else?? Why?

 

I am lost here.

I think pard is "prebalancing" (he obviosly has the right shape and knows I cannot have the right shape to balance, hence he is bidding my values), so I won't get wild because my hand has extras.

I bid 5 and accept losing the slam if it's there.

[flytoox]

With AKxxx in pd's opening suit is not a very good sign. Swith DA with SQ I think it makes more sense to be aggressive. This hand is really not that good, both major Q's are soft card. Not sure they can play full role in 3N, whicn is most like the game we will end up.

[mila85]

I am surprised so many seem to think if forced to choose between invite or GF, they would go invite with this hand. This is a very good hand in support of diamonds. Phil gives a pair of similar hands where he failed to bid slam:

AKxx, AKx, Txxxx, x opposite: Qxx, Qxxx, AKxxx, x.

Opener can have 12-13 balanced.

 

I invite but I hope parter has more bids than two (minimum and maximum)

[Double !]

Hand #1: I don't think one can immediately determine whether or not hand #1 is GF playing precision until one gets a rebid from opener. This type of hand opens another can of worms, specifically the almost universal position that an inverted single raise of a minor denies a 4-card major. BUT, should it, especially playing limited openers with 1D showing 2+ diamonds, or whatever? I suspect that I am probably alone in this, but I say no. Wouldn't it be nice to get the invitational-plus nature off of one's chest with a forcing single raise, and be able to rebid your spade suit or raise spades depending on opener's rebid? Maybe some agreements regarding the meaning of opener's rebid would be necessary, maybe not if just playing naturally. An initial response of 1S creates rebid problems. (anticipate many disagreements to this position.) BTW, knowing what 1NT opening range the parternship is playing might help....?

 

Hand#2: 5D is enough. Where is it written that the 4Heart bid necessarily shows a weak hand and that P has a big hand? IMO it shows a hand that could be of any range whereby the 4H bidder has decided to place the contract. Otherwise, the 4Ht bidder might have bid something else?

[luis]

Thanks for the responses, some good views.

About hand #1 it was an opinion poll, I'm in the GF "wo what" band.

 

Hand #2 is interesting because looking at your cards I think it's quite obvious that you should be bidding 6d, K of spades, nothing in hearts where pd seems to be void, queen of diamonds and QJ of clubs for pd minors, too many good signs. But if you bid 6 they will likely defend to 6h then do you bid 7? It's a roller coaster, specially when pd is doing EXACTLY the same thing that you are doing!!!

Pds hand:

Axx,- AKxxx, AKxxx

 

If you bid 5d pd passes (!) planning to go to 6d if they bid 5h now things get interesting when they do bid 5h and YOU bid 6d, then pd passes expecting to bid 7 if they defend to 6h. Amazingly In 7h they go for 800 only so almost anything you can write in your column is quite good.

One of those hands....