mikeh Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 you should see the difference between the fluffys and the mikes versus believers and the atheists. Specially when the fluffys he mentioned gather in group because of something that I do not even do (reject other gods) So what do you actually believe? See post 499: 'god came to heart and changed the world 2000 years ago' That has to be the Christian god, right? The god that has made it abundantly clear that thou shalt have no other god? That one? The one who created, literally, everything? That one? Yet you deny that you reject any other gods? I can understand why you may find choosing any one god as 'the answer' is confusing even tho all monotheistic religions require that you choose only one as 'it'. The reality is that not one religion makes a plausible case for its choice being the right one, so of course someone may have doubts. If so, maybe you are far closer to atheism than you think :D That's all atheism is: doubt. Atheism isn't 'knowing the answers', no matter how 'certain' I and others may appear to be. My certainty is about process not outcome, if that makes any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 It is possible to believe that a God exists without accepting all of the teachings of any particular religion associated with that God, Mike. If Fluffy says that he believes in a Judeo-Christian God without rejecting other gods, I see no reason to criticise that position because other believers take a different viewpoint. I do not believe in everything that is written by non-believers either (yes I know you see that as different because there is not an organised religion of non-believers). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elianna Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 The god that has made it abundantly clear that thou shalt have no other god? That one? Not that I disagree with your other points, but that particular quote doesn't necessarily mean that you can't admit that there may be other gods, you just can't "have" (i.e. worship) another god in front of that one. So you don't need to necessarily deny that other gods exist if you follow that rule, you just have to assert that your god supersedes others. Then again, one could ask why you're so sure that your god supersedes others, but that's a slightly different point than existence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 you should see the difference between the fluffys and the mikes versus believers and the atheists. Specially when the fluffys he mentioned gather in group because of something that I do not even do (reject other gods) But anyway I never intended to offend you with my wording, I apologice if I did.There is no clear difference because you were talking about the atheists on this forum, not atheists in general. Of course the stereotypes themselves are different but I am just talking about the act of making a stereotype. I already said that it doesn't offend me, there is no need to apologise for your wording. Your double standard itself slightly annoys me though so admitting the double standard and/or stopping it would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I find it more likely that all gods are the same one, but both options are possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Not that I disagree with your other points, but that particular quote doesn't necessarily mean that you can't admit that there may be other gods, you just can't "have" (i.e. worship) another god in front of that one. So you don't need to necessarily deny that other gods exist if you follow that rule, you just have to assert that your god supersedes others. Then again, one could ask why you're so sure that your god supersedes others, but that's a slightly different point than existence.Kinda funny (and immature I know) video I remembered :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 One of the most serious problems with religion is that parents teach it to their children as THE TRUTH. Not "this is what I believe, these are the reasons why, you may choose to believe the same when you are older and have thought about the issue, or you may not". If you look at a large family group, is it really so likely that they all considered the matter of religion carefully and came to the exact same conclusion, even to the extent of choosing the same holy book out of all the options available? My nine-year-old niece believes in God; her seven-year-old brother does not. They go to UU church, so they know that the choice is theirs and that they may change their minds as well. UU religious education teaches children about various world religions, so that if they do wish to adopt a religious belief system, they can choose the one that seems best to resonate with them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 One of the most serious problems with religion is that parents teach it to their children as THE TRUTH. Not "this is what I believe, these are the reasons why, you may choose to believe the same when you are older and have thought about the issue, or you may not". If you look at a large family group, is it really so likely that they all considered the matter of religion carefully and came to the exact same conclusion, even to the extent of choosing the same holy book out of all the options available? My nine-year-old niece believes in God; her seven-year-old brother does not. They go to UU church, so they know that the choice is theirs and that they may change their minds as well. UU religious education teaches children about various world religions, so that if they do wish to adopt a religious belief system, they can choose the one that seems best to resonate with them. excellent comments vamp... what do you teach your child when it comes to truth and religion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 excellent comments vamp... what do you teach your child when it comes to truth and religion?I don't know what Vampyr teaches her children, but I can tell you what we try to teach ours: To know about all religions (within practical limitations), to respect them and to defer their judgement. That means that we actively get them in contact with religions:They both go to a Roman Catholic school.They have been to christian ceremonies (funerals, weddings) in church.They have been to the local mosque.They have travelled to India to attend an Upanayanam.We discuss fundamental questions such as "where do we come from?" and "where are we going?". All these things are discussed openly in our family. Of course, they learn our views (as non-believers), but they will also here sentences that start with: "These people believe xyz because of pqr and that is why they klm.". It may seem that we do a lot to show them religions, but we aren't. We want to expose them to the diversity of the world that we live in, in all aspects... that not everybody does things the way we do them... and that these other people are happy too. And religion is merely one aspect of these people's lives. Rik 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 I don't know what Vampyr teaches her children, but I can tell you that we try to teach ours: To know about all religions (within practical limitations), to respect them and to defer their judgement. That means that we actively get them in contact with religions:They both go to a Roman Catholic school.They have been to christian ceremonies (funerals, weddings) in church.They have been to the local mosque.They have travelled to India to attend an Upanayanam.We discuss fundamental questions such as "where do we come from?" and "where are we going?" All these things are discussed openly in our family. Of course, they learn our views (as non-believers), but they will also here sentences that start with: "These people believe xyz because of pqr and that is why they klm.". It may seem that we do a lot to show them religions, but we aren't. We want to expose them to the diversity of the world that we live in, in all aspects... that not everybody does things the way we do them... and that these other people are happy too. And religion is merely one aspect of these people's lives. Rik When I was going through confirmation in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, we had an exchange program with one of the local Catholic parishes as well as a reform synagogue. We were expected to attend services at one of the partner sites for a month each as well as to study the tenets of their religions as to get a better idea regarding common beliefs between the religions as well as some of the idiosyncrasies. At the time, I didn't much like going to extra services, however, in retrospect it was one of the most valuable parts of the whole experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 I find it more likely that all gods are the same one, but both options are possible. Fluffy, you still have not answered. Who made God(s)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Fluffy, you still have not answered. Who made God(s)? God made god......not illogical...but yes logic is important. You don't say this but yes....is Christian god logical or not? Is Islam god logical? Is God all powerful but limited to laws of logic, phil...etc My understanding is the answer is yes...but you may disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenberg Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 When I was going through confirmation in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, we had an exchange program with one of the local Catholic parishes as well as a reform synagogue. We were expected to attend services at one of the partner sites for a month each as well as to study the tenets of their religions as to get a better idea regarding common beliefs between the religions as well as some of the idiosyncrasies. At the time, I didn't much like going to extra services, however, in retrospect it was one of the most valuable parts of the whole experience. I was confirmed in the Presbyterian church in 1952. We had no such exchange programs, I think our minister could have benefited from such a program, we kids did not need it. My parent's closest friends were a Catholic family. The mother, May, would come over and sit with my mother in the kitchen, drink a lot of beer, and discuss life. Once May suggested that Kenny (that's me) should be sent to Holy Spirit because May's daughter Shirley was getting a much better education there. Not true, imo, but anyway my mother firmly explained that since we were not Catholic, we would not be doing that. As far as I can recall, that's the only religious issue that ever arose. My Jewish friends had to go to Hebrew School, which made them unavailable at certain times. That was a nuisance. My friend Stan never joined the Boy Scouts ( was in for a couple of years, loved camping, the rest was, well, the rest), but he did go to YMCA summer camp. He never went much into detail, but I got the idea that despite the C in YMCA, it was seen as more accepting of Jewish kids than the local chapter of the Boy Scouts was. But there were Jewish kids in it, so who knows. I think, but I am not sure, that the first girl I dated was Jewish. The fact that I am not sure indicates how important it wasn't. The second girl I dated was Unitarian, a faith I had never before heard of. She thought that her church might be attractive for a budding atheist such as myself since, as the expression went, Unitarians believed in at most one God. It didn't fit me. For unexplainable reasons, my mother decided that Judy, this second girlfriend, was black (we didn't capitalize it back then). Once my mother got a notion she never backed down. They never met but if they had I am sure Mom would have said that she had really white skin for a black girl. I don't want to give the wrong impression here. It's true that we all got along just fine, but marriage was seen differently. Stick with your own kind, as Anita tells Maria in West Side Story. When, as happened, a Jewish guy married a non-Jew, his parents held a funeral and declared him dead. And May Britt marrying Sammy Davis Jr.? Very shocking. I never saw my father treat anyone differently based on religion or race. He never used foul names. But marriage was suppose to be to someone from your own group. The practicality of it was stressed, although I imagine it would be naive to think it was all about practicality. While I am discussing early background: A friend grew up to become a Methodist minister. Around 1965 or so he performed a marriage ceremony for two guys. More than a bit of a shocker. It turned out that there was nothing in the Methodist rule book that prohibited this, presumably because when the rule book was written it never occurred to anyone that such a rule would be required. From my early life or from my later experiences or whatever, I really am not much interested in telling other people what they should think about God. I'll take care of my beliefs, they can take care of theirs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 I grew up with the old Dutch saying: Twee geloven op een kussendaar slaapt de duivel tussen. This translates to: "Two religions on one pillow has the devil sleeping in between." And for this "religion" was defined very narrowly: Calvinists from different factions are seen as different religions. (Another wisdom says that the Netherlands has as many religious factions as it has inhabitants.) Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Fluffy, you still have not answered. Who made God(s)?Actually I've done, mikeh has used that argument, and as I said, from god's perspective, lack of a maker might not be any kind of problem. We are locked in a 3d world but god could have a 4d or 7d intelligence we cannot ever begin to understand. There is also a cyclic theory were god was created by a superior god, and that superior god by another even greater etc, and the greatest of all is us. I don't think it makes much sense but I don't reject it totally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 "You can't fool me! It's elephants all the way down!" :P 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Actually I've done, mikeh has used that argument, and as I said, from god's perspective, lack of a maker might not be any kind of problem. We are locked in a 3d world but god could have a 4d or 7d intelligence we cannot ever begin to understand. There is also a cyclic theory were god was created by a superior god, and that superior god by another even greater etc, and the greatest of all is us. I don't think it makes much sense but I don't reject it totally.Doesn't this cyclic theory then simply take you back to where we are now: Not knowing where we came from, but with a lot of surplus gods that explain... nothing. What would be the added value of coming up with these gods? Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 it adds a purpose to the universe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 In what way? The gods created us - why?We created the gods - why? I see no purpose, just a useless circle. What do you see? Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 "Two religions on one pillow has the devil sleeping in between." "The Netherlands has as many religious factions as it has inhabitants"Hmmm, I hope (at least) one of these pieces of wisdom isn't actually true, otherwise I don't see much of a future for the country.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassedOut Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Hmmm, I hope (at least) one of these pieces of wisdom isn't actually true, otherwise I don't see much of a future for the country....Maybe threesomes with the devil are popular... :blink: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Who needs a pillow... Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 This thread is really on a trip. I seem to still wish for the possibility of magic. And why not? There is IMO a significant difference between wishing for (a knowing muse) and having "faith" - the latter is worthless unless one acts on that "faith". The idea of "magic" or god, if you prefer, has been tested to a degree. During the 1300s, faith in god was the sole barrier between the Black Death and the population - during those 100 years it is estimated that 75 million people died. In 1959, modern medicine was firmly entrenched as the answer to illness and worldwide deaths from bubonic plague dropped to 200 per year. Now, we may like to "muse" that magic can cure illness, but if we want to escape the Black Death then antibiotics and rodent control shows better outcomes. B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassedOut Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 The idea of "magic" or god, if you prefer, has been tested to a degree. During the 1300s, faith in god was the sole barrier between the Black Death and the population - during those 100 years it is estimated that 75 million people died. In 1959, modern medicine was firmly entrenched as the answer to illness and worldwide deaths from bubonic plague dropped to 200 per year.That's why god created science! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 That's why god created science! :)But why did He do it on the 2017149th day... Didn't He have his priorities straight? ;) Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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