2C continuations

[ewj]

So my partner and I have started playing what I believe to be quite popular responses....3C=clubs, 3d=diamonds, no major, 3M=4M and longer diamonds.

But after 2c-3M, how do people tend to 'set' the major and/or diamonds? Obviously 4d does the latter but do people play 4c as hearts? It would be nice to have 3s (over 3H) and 4c as natural though....

Also, what do people think the minimum hands would be for such a 3M response? I was thinking something like axxx and xxxxx in the suits but any other thoughts?

[gwnn]

I think it's awful to bid 3M with just Axxx xxx xxxxx x, say. Make it significantly stronger than that and require it to have 6+ diamonds. Maybe a minimum should be: Qxxx xx AJxxxx x. I know it's strong! The point is to have it immediately convey strong slam interest. I don't see why we'd want to gobble up all that space just to tell pd that we have a bit more than a minimum with some diamonds and a 4cM.

[gordontd]

I wonder if there's some confusion between rebids & responses here. I know this system for opener's rebids, but not as responses.

[PhilKing]

There are two questions here:

 

1. How should one continue after a 3M response?

 

2. What are the requirements for 3M (4M + diamonds)?

 

We have to answer the second question first. I don't see why you would want to clog up the auction with two crappy suits (just bid 2♦), so it should promise good diamonds and a full positive. Normal shape should be 64, but 5-4 is OK with two good suits.

 

Back to question one. By keeping the requirements high (don't worry that the frequency is low - it is low with good reason) the responses are easier:

 

3NT = NF. Some people have suggested it is logically forcing in analagous auctions, since we should be able to make 4NT, but I prefer it to suggest a misfit with, perhaps, a shortage in diamonds. Also, a forcing 3NT renders various continuations meaningless.

 

New suit. F1, including 4♥ over 3♠.

 

4♦/4M. RKCB variant. Since it is a low frequency situation, I would opt for straight RKCB, though improvements might be possible. Slam is virtually certain after this start to the auction, so just ask for controls and you have plenty of room to explore for grand. Opener is very unlikely to need to ask for side shortage, so you don't need a mechanism for that.

 

4NT. Balanced, inv, no prime fit (if your 2♣ does not include balanced 22-bad24, then this should prob be slam force).

 

5♣/5oM. Self agreed RKCB.

[ewj]

Thanks Phil!

[Winstonm]

My thinking along with Bob's was that the differential should be balanced/semi-balanced verses unbalanced, then combine that with game forcing (positive) and game doubtful (double negative).

 

Now, exactly how to structure the response system after that start is up to a partnership, but after long and hard thought my old friend and I came to the conclusions that the two most frequent hand patterns for 2C were NT hands and one-suiters. It seemed to make the most sense to build a response system based on those hand types and fit in more rare types only if possible.

[Zelandakh]

I wonder if there's some confusion between rebids & responses here. I know this system for opener's rebids, but not as responses.

See here for a recent thread where this was suggested. This is the same thread that Frances explained that she plays a positive response as forcing to 4NT. That would also be a very simple agreement for this auction and would also provide a logical lower bound on the 3M response.

[fromageGB]

I am not familiar with these strong positive responses. Are they used in conjunction with 2♥ and 2♠ as natural strong positives without a minor, and 2♦ denies a strong positive?

 

Or are they in addition to a weaker merely GF non-specific positive and a negative?

[gwnn]

I am not familiar with these strong positive responses. Are they used in conjunction with 2♥ and 2♠ as natural strong positives without a minor, and 2♦ denies a strong positive?

 

Or are they in addition to a weaker merely GF non-specific positive and a negative?

I played them as

2H=double negative

2S=8-10 balanced

2NT=very good 6+ card major positive

3m/3M=as above.

[jdeegan]

:P Oh dear. This is really a promising thread fraught with some peril. Ask yourself, fundamentally what are we really up to? If we respond:

1. 2♥ it says no game opposite a balanced minimum and possibly many other suited minimums

2. 2♦ you get to begin to hear what the big hand is all about

3. 2♠ as 8-10 HCP balanced - a sensible recycling of the old 2NT response

 

After this, you get into the old dilemma of whether to ask or tell after partner advertises a really exceptional strong hand of some unknown sort. If partner has the big balanced hand, you have plenty of tools to proceed. So, absent that, what should your higher level bid best show as a descriptive bid? Mostly, it comes up so rarely, it really does not matter much.

 

4. 2NT, then, makes a nice relay bid into something. IMO, it may be better used as showing a certain minimum of controls (or aces) and some potential slam interest opposite whatever partner may have.

5. 3♣ through 3♠: the old fashioned six bagger to two of the top three

 

The watch word here is whether the emphasis is on asking or telling.

[Zelandakh]

I am not familiar with these strong positive responses. Are they used in conjunction with 2♥ and 2♠ as natural strong positives without a minor, and 2♦ denies a strong positive?

 

Or are they in addition to a weaker merely GF non-specific positive and a negative?

They probably make sense in any framework in which 3♦ is a natural positive (or even a natural semi-positive). 3♦ is just an awkward level to be at without knowing anything about the majors.