Responder's forcing pass after 1x-(4/5/6y)-?

[Chamaco]

Hi all,

reading a past post :) , I noticed that quite a few good players suggest that in a sequence such as

1♠-(5♦)- ? , responder's pass would be better played as forcing.

This needs agreements of course, since it is far from clear whether this is standard or not.

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=974

 

Now my question is the following, and is for all those who play this kind of forcing pass:

 

Question 1

if pass is forcing on a 5-level overcall, is it forcing at the 4 level?

E.g. 1♦-(4S)-? is pass forcing here ?

 

Where is the lower boundary for the pass to be forcing ?

 

Question 2

Is there an upper boundary ? (E.g. 1♠-(5♦)- ? , is pass forcing ?)

 

 

Thanks !

[whereagles]

Why shd that be forcing? Is 1S 16+ or somefink? :)

[Chamaco]

Why shd that be forcing? Is 1S 16+ or somefink? :)

In the thread I refer to, Misho says it should be forcing because opener has promised 2+ defensive tricks.

 

Howver, I agree that many will play pass as NF, but the post i a question to those who do play it as forcing :-)

[whereagles]

Hum... the requirement an opening bid should have 2+ defensive tricks is all nice and dandy, but can get you into trouble. Are you really happy to open a "weak" 2S on

 

KQJxx

xx

KQJxx

x

 

because you don't have the defensive tricks for a 1-level opening?

 

Or is the 2+ defensive tricks requirement just a statistical guideline which you can ignore at the time of opening, because responder can safely assume most opening hands actually have those tricks it in the end?

[Chamaco]

Hum... the requirement an opening bid should have 2+ defensive tricks is all nice and dandy, but ......

Whereagles,

I agree with some of your points, but I would try to avoid to get sidetracked on the issue: is it better to use forcing pass or not here ?

If we want to discuss the practicality of such approach, I suggest we start another (interesting BTW) thread :-)

 

 

My original post is rather:

just assume- right or wrong - you use forcing pass after 5 level overcall.

Do you also use the same tactics for 4 level and/or 6 level ? Where is the threashold ?

[mila85]

If opps play forcing pass here I would bid 4s with very strong hand.

I will make 4s redouble or double them and take about 1400...

(Of course you do not get this hand very often but it's possible..)

[inquiry]

I doubt many play pass of a four level preempt as forcing. If you play 4dx making it is a huge problem, if you play 5dx making, it is not.

 

I don;'t play pass as forcing (see older thread), but I understand why you would want to... if you pass and hten pull the double back to partners suit you are inviting slam without just having to bid it. In otherwords, you win by adding flexibility to your various raises (not by playing 5dx). And when you double, your parnter is unlikely to bid on so you can be sure he will not go off bidding on some offensive hand which is useful when you have the right hand.

 

Myself, I like to use takeout doubles over these bids.

 

Ben

[MickyB]

If opps play forcing pass here I would bid 4s with very strong hand.

I will make 4s redouble or double them and take about 1400...

(Of course you do not get this hand very often but it's possible..)

Assuming you know they play it as a FP situation, of course. I've never seen it on a convention card, IMO there should be a FP section on the EBU card as there is on the WBF card.

[whereagles]

Whereagles, I agree with some of your points, but I would try to avoid to get sidetracked on the issue: is it better to use forcing pass or not here ?

I see. Well, I don't play it as forcing, and I don't think I will in the coming weeks, so I think I "pass" this discussion :)

[pclayton]

I wasn't around when the first thread ran.

 

If a FP is on here; it means that we either play the hand or they play it x'd. Ergo, responder is forced to bid on some unbalanced hands unsuitable for defense.

 

I've not heard of a FP after 1x (4x+) - ? unless pard opens a strong 2C or Precision 1C. I have heard of a FP after (preempt) - overcall or double by pard (high raise); like: (2H) - dbl - (5H) - ? or (3C) - 3H - (5C) - ?. Here - theres a good chance they are stealing from us.

[Guest Jlall]

why are the necessarily stealing from us? when it goes 1S-5D amazingly enough all of your high cards may get ruffed. Maybe I should be more open-minded to this treatment, and I try to be, but I honestly just cannot see how this is playable.