16 -21 HCP, 4 Card Major with 5+ MInor

[Shugart23]

I'm looking for suggestions on finding your 4-4 Major fit where you have 1C (precision) opening hand and where partner has 5-7 HCP and happens to have 4 cards in your Major.

 

Bidding starts 1C-1D.....so if you have 4 Spades and a 5 Clubs or Diamonds, is it better to then bid a non-forcing 1S vs. 2 of your Minor ?

 

Bidding starts 1C- 1D....if you have 4 Hearts and 5 Clubs, do you bid 2C and then partner either names his 4 card Major or bids 2D asking if there is another side suit ?

 

Bidding starts 1C-1D...if you have 4 Hearts and 5 Diamonds, do you bid 2D and partner bids his 4 card Major ?

 

Thank you very much for any replies Eric

[Shugart23]

I should add we use 1C-1D -1H as a waiting bid where the partner will bid 1S and then the opener shows either a 5+ card Heart suit or a NT distribution by bidding 1NT,2NT,or 3NT depending on point count

[dake50]

Canape 1M rebids. Forcing once.

Responder raises or cheap description with 0-4. Upbids with 5-7.

[Free]

I prefer 1♣-1♦-1M to show 4+M and forcing for a round. The only time we have a 4 card is when we are unbalanced (balanced hands bid NT). After this, responder shows a double negative by bidding at 1-level or a simple raise (after which opener can bid his longer minor or place the contract). With 5-7 responder can bid 2♣ (0-2 card support), 2♦ (3 card support), 3M (balanced 4 card support) or a splinter with 4 card support.

[mikestar13]

I prefer 1♣-1♦-1M to show 4+M and forcing for a round. The only time we have a 4 card is when we are unbalanced (balanced hands bid NT). After this, responder shows a double negative by bidding at 1-level or a simple raise (after which opener can bid his longer minor or place the contract). With 5-7 responder can bid 2♣ (0-2 card support), 2♦ (3 card support), 3M (balanced 4 card support) or a splinter with 4 card support.

 

I learned this method in a Bridge Winner's article by Kit Woolsey and can testify it works quite well--the round forcing nature of the bid means you can also use it on very strong major suit hands, thus freeing up 1♣-1♦-2♥/♠ for whatever uses suit the partnership. A scheme we have found useful is 2♥=relay to 2♠ with a strong balanced hand, 2♠=strong minor two suiter.

[mattias]

After 1♣ 1♦ we play

 

1♥ 16-19 with 5+hearts or 20+ almost any hand

1♠ 16-21 5+

1nt 17-19 bal/semibal

2♣/♦ 16-19 6+, or 54 minors, no 4-card major

2♥/♠ 16-19 4cards with longer minor, promising a shortness

2nt 16-19 55 minors

3 level unbalanced hand with spades not strong enough for 1h but with too much playing strength for 1sp.

 

The 2M bids are not ideal, but the other bids are similar to our opening structure which helps a lot with continuations.

[Free]

I learned this method in a Bridge Winner's article by Kit Woolsey and can testify it works quite well--the round forcing nature of the bid means you can also use it on very strong major suit hands, thus freeing up 1♣-1♦-2♥/♠ for whatever uses suit the partnership. A scheme we have found useful is 2♥=relay to 2♠ with a strong balanced hand, 2♠=strong minor two suiter.

Yep, we use 2♥ as a Kokish-kind of puppet (including various GF hands), and 2♠ as a strong minor 2-suiter.

[Zelandakh]

Has anyone tried a structure along the lines of

 

1♣ - 1♦

==

1♥ = 16-19 any; or 25-26 bal

1♠ = unbal GF

1NT = 20-22 bal

2suit = nat strong 2

2NT = 23-24 bal

 

or

 

1♥ = 16-19 without 5 spades; or 25-26 bal

1♠ = 16-19, 5+ spades

1NT = 20-22 bal

2♣ = strong 2 any suit

2♦♥♠ = nat GF

2NT = 23-24 bal

3♣ = nat GF

 

It does not feel as natural as the equivalent for a 3-way forcing club but it still looks like it ought to be playable.

 

Whatever rebids you play, it seems to me that if you play transfers over a 2♣ opening, you can profitably re-use the same structure after 1♣ - 1♦; 2♣.

[straube]

Has anyone tried a structure along the lines of

 

1♣ - 1♦

==

1♥ = 16-19 any; or 25-26 bal

1♠ = unbal GF

1NT = 20-22 bal

2suit = nat strong 2

2NT = 23-24 bal

 

or

 

1♥ = 16-19 without 5 spades; or 25-26 bal

1♠ = 16-19, 5+ spades

1NT = 20-22 bal

2♣ = strong 2 any suit

2♦♥♠ = nat GF

2NT = 23-24 bal

3♣ = nat GF

 

It does not feel as natural as the equivalent for a 3-way forcing club but it still looks like it ought to be playable.

 

Whatever rebids you play, it seems to me that if you play transfers over a 2♣ opening, you can profitably re-use the same structure after 1♣ - 1♦; 2♣.

 

I think both of these are shortchanging the 16-19 range hands. 1C-1D, 1H should be very frequent but not that frequent.

[sfi]

Precision's One Club Complete by Wei and Radin is an excellent treatment of this. A major rebid is forcing and may be canape. They discuss continuations in detail and adopting their approach fixed lots of issues in our system.

[Zelandakh]

I think both of these are shortchanging the 16-19 range hands. 1C-1D, 1H should be very frequent but not that frequent.

Well you could turn it around and make 1♥ 20+ and direct bids 16-19. That makes 1♥ less common but the resulting system is probably not as good.

[straube]

Well you could turn it around and make 1♥ 20+ and direct bids 16-19. That makes 1♥ less common but the resulting system is probably not as good.

 

Well, many play that 1C-1D, 1H is artificial 20+.

 

I kind of suspect that 1C-1D, 1M natural and forcing is the right continuation after 1D 0-7. 1C-1D means that partnership has failed its gambit to enter a game force and there is much less room to find a fit. 1C-1D, 1H as bigger could be viewed as doubling down on this strategy. 1C-1D, 1H-1S(second negative) leaves the partnership knowing they've slightly more than half the deck but no idea which strain is best.

 

You might ask RobF about his continuations. His are complicated by the fact that his 1D response is 0-7 or GF hearts. I think he uses...

 

1C-1D

.....1H-16-18 bal OR various

.....1S-2-suiters

.....1N-19-21 or so bal

.....2C-like a strong artificial 2C

 

1C-1D, 1S as 16-18 and 5+ spades is far too narrow for such an important bid.

[Shugart23]

Thanks all. I don't want to give up the double duty of my 1H bid in 1C-1D-1H showing either Hearts or NT distribution, which is forcing to 1S (95%of time). e.g. 1C-1D-1H-1S - then opener makes further description. If I don't give up 1H, then canapé is out when I have 4 H and 5 of a Minor

 

With 5 of 1 Minor and 332 in other suits, showing a NT hand makes sense which would then imply 1C-1D-2C either shows a 5+ card suit with a 4 card side suit OR a 6+ card Club suit. The ID responder could make a query with 2D and Opener could show 4H,4S,4D(by bidding 2NT), or 3C without a side suit.

 

With 5D, and 4 Spades, it could go canapé...1C-1D-1S.....but I need to research the continuations...

 

Then I am only left with the problem of 4H and 5 Diamonds as unresolved....

 

I'm still thinking on all you have suggested.

 

Thanks

[straube]

If you play 1C-1D, 1H forces 1S 95% of the time, you are really throwing away valuable 1C-1D, 1H-1N+ sequences. This means that something is wrong and I believe that it's in the meaning you've selected for your 1H rebid.

[Shugart23]

1C-1D-1NT shows 16-17

1C-1D-1H-1S-1NT shows 18-19

1C-1D-2NT shows 20-21

1C-1D-1H-1S-2NT shows 22-23

1C-1D -3NT shows 24-25

1C-1D-1H-1S-3NT shows 26-27

 

1C-1D-1H-1S-2C shows 5 Hears,4 clubs 16-21

1C-1D-1H-1S-2D shows 5 Hearts,4 Diamonds 16-21

1C-1D-1H-1S -2H shows 6th hearts no side suit 16-21

1C-1D-1H-1S-2S shows 5 Hearts, 4 Spades

1C-1D-2H shows Hearts , game force

[Shugart23]

When the 1D bidder doesn't bid 1S, he shows :

 

1C-1D-1H -2C shows complete bust with 6+ card Club suit, at most 1 Q in the hand

 

Similarly, 1C-1D-1H-2D and 1C-1D-1H-1S.

 

1C-1D-1H-1NT shows 7 HCP, flat

[Shugart23]

1C-1D-1H-2H shows bust hand with 6 hearts, at most one queen in the hand as well

[Zelandakh]

1C-1D-1NT shows 16-17

1C-1D-1H-1S-1NT shows 18-19

I would suggest making these 16-18 and 19-21, then pushing up the other balanced ranges by 2 points or taking one of the ranges out and using that sequence for an awkward hand type. A 3 hcp range is just fine at the one level.

[Shugart23]

Yeah, I don't really disagree. Our 2NT opening is really almost completely useless bid ; we use it to show 5/5 in the Minors sparingly because I don't think the GCC will let us do anything else and it gives away too much info to the opponents, especially when we are red.

 

Maybe your suggestion can make room for the elusive 5 Diamond, 4 Heart holding.

[straube]

When the 1D bidder doesn't bid 1S, he shows :

 

1C-1D-1H -2C shows complete bust with 6+ card Club suit, at most 1 Q in the hand

 

Similarly, 1C-1D-1H-2D and 1C-1D-1H-1S.

 

1C-1D-1H-1NT shows 7 HCP, flat

 

I think that illustrates my point. Think about how often responder will have 6+ clubs and 0-1 queen at the point of 1C-1D, 1H. Not often and not very important either. Plus this sequence doesn't lead to anything.

 

For contrast, we use

 

1C-1D 16+, very bad or very good hand

1H-2C artficial relay, very good hand with both majors

 

This always leads to opener relaying now for responder's complete shape.

 

Or contrast to Meckwell.

 

1C-1D 16+, 0-7

1H-2C natural, 6-7, not 4S or 3H

 

now opener's 2D is a stuck bid allowing responder to show 2 hearts.

[rbforster]

I kind of suspect that 1C-1D, 1M natural and forcing is the right continuation after 1D 0-7.

Forcing, yes. Natural. is up for debate :)

 

You might ask RobF about his continuations. His are complicated by the fact that his 1D response is 0-7 or GF hearts. I think he uses...

 

1C-1D

.....1H-16-18 bal OR various

.....1S-2-suiters

.....1N-19-21 or so bal

.....2C-like a strong artificial 2C

There are some subtleties but that's about right. 1H is min 1-suited or balanced, although its forcing so there are some strong heart hands in there too that jump later. 1S is min 2 suiter including a major with artificial continuations. our 1H-1S confirms 0-7 and is not a double negative, as 1D could have GF heart hands that transfer and then relay over 1H with 1N+ instead of 1S.

[Shugart23]

I think that illustrates my point. Think about how often responder will have 6+ clubs and 0-1 queen at the point of 1C-1D, 1H. Not often and not very important either. Plus this sequence doesn't lead to anything.

 

Right, with us, the 1D responder almost always bids 1S after bidding has gone 1C-1D-1H- ?.

 

1C-1D 16+, very bad or very good hand

1H-2C artficial relay, very good hand with both majors

 

I'm not following this...1H by Opener is natural or a waiting bid, and then the 2C is showing 5-7 with both majors by the responder in your methods ?

[straube]

I think that illustrates my point. Think about how often responder will have 6+ clubs and 0-1 queen at the point of 1C-1D, 1H. Not often and not very important either. Plus this sequence doesn't lead to anything.

 

Right, with us, the 1D responder almost always bids 1S after bidding has gone 1C-1D-1H- ?.

 

1C-1D 16+, very bad or very good hand

1H-2C artficial relay, very good hand with both majors

 

I'm not following this...1H by Opener is natural or a waiting bid, and then the 2C is showing 5-7 with both majors by the responder in your methods ?

 

Yes, we use IMPrecision responses so 1C-1D is roughly 0-4 hcps or 11+ hcps with any shape. After this, we deviate from IMPrecision and 1C-1D, 1H is (usually) balanced but can be certain other shapes. So

 

1C-1D,

.....1H-1S (0-4 or 11+ bal)

........1N (11+ unbal with spades but not hearts)

........2C (11+ unbal with majors)

........2D (11+ unbal with both minors)

........etc (11+ other)

 

I wasn't recommending this (doesn't work for 1D 0-7) but I think what we do is a good example of how a system ought to "branch".

 

My other example (Meckwell) would be a better fit for you. They also branch.

 

1C-1D

.....1H-natural, possible canape

..........1S-0-7 with 4+S

..........1N-0-4 without 4H or 4S, forcing

..........2C-6-7 without 4S or 2H

...............2D-stuck

....................2H-2 hearts

..........2D-6-7 with 3+ hearts

...............2H-not interested

....................2S-and 4S

..........2H-0-4 with 4+ hearts

..........2S-6-7 with 5S and 3H

..........2N-? Don't know what they do but I like this as 6-7 and 4+H

..........3m-6-7 and 3H/6m

.....1S-natural, possible canape

..........1N-0-4, other, forcing

..........2C-6-7, not 3S

...............2D-stuck

....................2H-5+ hearts

....................2S-2 spades

..........2D-6-7, 3S

..........2H-6-7, 3S and 5H

..........2S-0-4, 4+S

..........2N-can't remember, like 4+S and 6-7

..........3m-6-7, 3S and 6+m

..........3H-6-7, 3S and 6+H

.....1N-17-19

.....2m-5m, no 4M

.....2H-forces 2S

..........2S-forced

...............2N-GF bal

...............etc-natural, forcing? can't remember

.....2S-almost GF with 3-suited (4441s and 5m4m31s)

..........2N-asking

..........3C-nf, preference

..........3D-nf, preference

.....2N-22-23 bal

.....3m-invitational?

.....3M-can't remember

 

If you like this, maybe someone can fill in the gaps.

[keylime]

Larry and I played a strong diamond for the first time last week, and we have 1♥ as either 0-4 or 8+ GF (excluding certain hand types). It might help accuracy to have some sort of semipositive response into your schedule.

[Shugart23]

Larry and I played a strong diamond for the first time last week, and we have 1♥ as either 0-4 or 8+ GF (excluding certain hand types). It might help accuracy to have some sort of semipositive response into your schedule.

 

I'm not sure I'm ready to revamp everything we do. For us, after 1C, almost any bid partner makes besides 1D is a game force...eg 1C-1H shows 5+ Spades, 8+ HCP whereupon asking bids commence immediately. Our one exception is 1C-2S (by an unpassed hand) which shows 8-11 HCP balanced where bidding occassionally stops at 2NT when both hands are at a minimum and balanced.

 

With 5-7 HCP, I suppose our system is more traditional where the second bid by the 1D bidder shows the 5-7 (semi-positive?) count.

eg 1C-1D -1S (showing 16-21, natural) - 2C (showing 5-7 HCP and 5+ Clubs)

 

If we were to use 1D to show one of two types of hands (weak or strong), aren't a lot of bids being used up to show the middle bid, and is that an advantage over what I do now ? e. 1C-1H or 1C-1S or 1C-1NT , etc...... ?

 

I have to confess I have never seen system notes where 1D is used in this fashion. It's intriguing. Is this what IMPrecision does , and if so, is there a source document for me to study ?