What's your plan?

[han]

Playing IMPs, all white, you hold x Qxxxx x AK10xxx.

 

LHO opens 1NT (15-17) RHO (Steve Landen) bids 2H, transfer. What is your plan?

 

Are you going to show both suits, or just one?

 

If Steve bids 3NT next, do you act over that?

[the hog]

I bid 2S showing H and a minor

[Free]

I bid 2S showing H and a minor

Nice one, I might find that at the table as well.

 

After 3NT I'll pass, since all suits won't break nicely <_<

[joker_gib]

I bid 2S showing H and a minor

Same for me ! <_<

[shanbari]

2s by me either, however i suspect 3c could be winning bid here, due to 3nt contract. isn't it ?

 

shan

[Fasteddy]

I'm not sure 2S shows hearts and a minor without prior agreement. Might it not simply be a takeout of spades? I'd bid 3C. If I could bid spades at the 3-level, I'd do so. Over 3NT, I'd pass.

[inquiry]

I'm not sure 2S shows hearts and a minor without prior agreement. Might it not simply be a takeout of spades? I'd bid 3C. If I could bid spades at the 3-level, I'd do so. Over 3NT, I'd pass.

The theory (if you want to add a theory) is that 2♠ is a michales cue-bid, and it is certainly playable. I prefer, however, what I think you are suggesting.. here it is spelled out...

 

1NT-Pass-2H-?

 

DBL = hearts

2S = takeout other suits

2NT = "super unusual positive", any two suiter (clubs and diamonds, hearts and diamonds, hearts and club)... responder bids three card suits up the line, and I can use equal level conversion.

 

Either way works, but I prefer the flexibility of 2S as general takeout.

 

Ben

[Winstonm]

I don't like the quality of my heart suit for sacrifice purposes, the opps seem to hold spades, the master suit, and my partner is going to be on lead and I don't want him/her to lead a heart.

 

I'm a 3 club bidder here. If I had the QJ10 of hearts I would show the two suiter.

 

WinstonM

[luis]

3c, if they are going to play the hand I want a club lead.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned clubs.

[jillybean]

I bid 2S showing H and a minor

So this is michaels over a transfer, I like it!

 

1nt - p - 2H - 2S showing H&minor

1nt - p - 2D - 2H showing S&minor

 

Could I expect a pickup partner to know this?

 

Is michaels with 5/4 ok or do you always promise 5/5?

 

jillybean2

[Free]

I bid 2S showing H and a minor

So this is michaels over a transfer, I like it!

 

1nt - p - 2H - 2S showing H&minor

1nt - p - 2D - 2H showing S&minor

 

Could I expect a pickup partner to know this?

 

Is michaels with 5/4 ok or do you always promise 5/5?

 

jillybean2

I usually play as follows:

 

IF my Major will be played at least at 3-level, you need 55+

IF my Major can be played at 2-level, then I only need 5+M and 4+m

 

So:

 

1♥ - 2♥ promisses 5+♠ and 4+m

1♠ - 2♠ promisses 5+♥ and 5+m

[fred]

I'm not sure 2S shows hearts and a minor without prior agreement. Might it not simply be a takeout of spades? I'd bid 3C. If I could bid spades at the 3-level, I'd do so. Over 3NT, I'd pass.

The theory (if you want to add a theory) is that 2♠ is a michales cue-bid, and it is certainly playable. I prefer, however, what I think you are suggesting.. here it is spelled out...

 

1NT-Pass-2H-?

 

DBL = hearts

2S = takeout other suits

2NT = "super unusual positive", any two suiter (clubs and diamonds, hearts and diamonds, hearts and club)... responder bids three card suits up the line, and I can use equal level conversion.

 

Either way works, but I prefer the flexibility of 2S as general takeout.

 

Ben

Well I suppose the time had to come sooner or later. Remarkably, this is the first time that I can recall that I completely disagree with one of Ben's posts!

 

I think you should play the "cuebid" of the transfer suit as Michaels and pass with the "general takeout" hand.

 

The reason is that, because of the transfer, you are sure to get another chance to bid. You should take advantage of this opportunity and listen to another round of bidding. You can then double at your next turn with the "general takeout" hand if it seems like a smart thing to do (for example, if RHO's next call is pass you can double for takeout, but if RHO's next call is 3NT you will be happy that you stayed out of the auction).

 

When you have a 5-6 hand like the one in question here, you don't care that much how strong the opponents are - you want to get into the auction and do so at a safe level. If instead you have, say, a 1444 13-count, it is best to wait and see where the opps are going before deciding whether or not you want to be involved.

 

Ben's approach will work better than mine on some deals, but I feel pretty strongly that my approach will gain more than it loses.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Guest Jlall]

Agree totally with fred, but just to add an amusing story, i had a 1444 14 count (cant remember the exact hand) in a national swiss and i played the methods fred described, so i passed, and lho super accepted... passed back to me and i had no idea what to do. Usually i would pass, but rho passed VERY quickly over the super accept (an unusual thing) so i judged to X. It worked, but playing ben's methods would have been more helpful on that hand :)

[fred]

Here is another example of the same principle (though I don't think it applies quite as strongly here):

 

Should a double of Drury be "takeout of the major opened" or "lead directing"?

 

As far as I can tell there is no strong consensus among the expert community in this area, but I think there is a clearly "right" answer to this question. I will post my reasoning after people have had a chance to think about this.

 

Maybe I should have created a new thread for this, but this situation is analogous in some ways to the issues being discussed in this thread.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[inquiry]

I actually have a cup-half full agreement here...

 

If their major is hearts, double is takeout. If their major is spades, double is lead directing. So all I can say, is every onee will probably agree with me on half the hands... lol.... My logic is we are unliley to out bid them is their suit is spades, so I want the lead directing benefit of the double then... if they have hearts, we have a chance to outbid them a tthe two or three level if we can find a fit in spades.

 

Ben

[shanbari]

Here is another example of the same principle (though I don't think it applies quite as strongly here):

 

Should a double of Drury be "takeout of the major opened" or "lead directing"?

 

...

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

regarding to drury, i would choose 2s cuebid as michael, double of 2c/2d drury as compete bid with that suit, (may not be the lead directing as ben suggested, however not sure of which way is better).

 

shan

[han]

Here is another example of the same principle (though I don't think it applies quite as strongly here):

 

Should a double of Drury be "takeout of the major opened" or "lead directing"?

 

As far as I can tell there is no strong consensus among the expert community in this area, but I think there is a clearly "right" answer to this question. I will post my reasoning after people have had a chance to think about this.

 

Maybe I should have created a new thread for this, but this situation is analogous in some ways to the issues being discussed in this thread.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

No need to wait Fred, it seems obvious to me that you prefer the double as lead directing, and a delayed double of 2M as take-out. If this situation is at all similar, then your reasoning must be that it is safe to double if they bid 2S next, while if they go to 4S then you shouldn't come in with the take-out double, but a lead-directing double could be useful.

 

However, it seems to me that the delayed double is not safe at all, as they tend to have the balanced of strength, and are often in a 4-3 fit! Wouldn't it be nice if you could take-out double immediately over 2C (which seems safe) so that you don't have to balanced over 2H or 2S? To me this situation seems similar to the 1S-3C minimal Bergen raise, where I play the direct double as take-out, not lead directing.

 

Looking forward to read your opinion.

[fred]

Yes, I prefer double as leading directing because I think it is best to wait when you have a takeout double and see how the auction goes.

 

You make a good point, Hannie, and this is one of the reasons why I said that the case for waiting with a "takeout double hand" is not as strong here as it is when the opponents use a Jacoby transfer. Still, I think I can make a good case that the upside of waiting with the takeout hand and using double as lead directing is greater than the downside of not being able to double for takeout immediately.

 

Consider what happens after Drury is used. I will assume for the sake of argument that the opponents use "reverse Drury" (which is by far the most common form of this convention at least in the USA). I have no justification other than experience for the following numbers:

 

1) About 50% of the time opener will either jump to game or make some kind of slam investigation his partner uses Drury.

 

2) About 25% of the time opener will bid 2D in response to Drury (saying "I have a real opening bid, but my hand is not strong enough to commit to game opposite a minimum Drury response").

 

3) About 25% of the time opener with rebid 2 of his major in response to Drury (saying "I do not have a real opening bid").

 

If 1) takes place, you will almost always be better off staying silent with the "takeout double" hand. Making a takeout double could lead to a good sacrifice, but when you are a passed hand and your partner could not act over their opening bid, you usually will not want to get involved in high-level bidding. The downside of doubling for takeout in this case is that you are very likely to make it easier for the declarer to guess well.

 

On the other hand, if the opponents are about to bid a game or slam, being able to make a lead-directing double can be very important. On some deals the lack of a lead directing double in clubs will also help partner (for example, if he has xxx in both clubs and another unbid suit, he will know that leading the other suit is more likely to work out).

 

If 2) takes place you will get to hear both opponents bid another time before making your decision as to whether or not you want to get involved. If you had a marginal double to begin with, you might choose to pass now (and if RHO bids 2NT at his second turn for example, you will know that it is probably wrong to compete even if you have a sound takeout double).

 

If 3) takes place you will know that it is probably right to compete even if you have a marginal takeout double.

 

One other point: at matchpoints this discussion becomes a lot more complicated, but at IMPs the type 1) hands are the most important hands to get right.

 

Your point about the opponents possibly being in a 4-3 fit is certainly valid, but in the real world players (even very good ones) do not open 4-card majors as much as they should (at least in my view).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[han]

Very interesting, I think your point about the way a take-out double can help declarer in 4M is especially convincing.

 

Now I'm looking forward to read Ben's post in which he gives the percentages for what happened after people at BBO used drury! ;)

[flytoox]

Fred, this is thought-provoking. Does same argument apply to Bergen raise? For example, 1M-P-3C-?? 3C=7-9HCP 4card raise.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Hongjun

[fred]

Fred, this is thought-provoking. Does same argument apply to Bergen raise? For example, 1M-P-3C-?? 3C=7-9HCP 4card raise.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Hongjun

The same argument applies to some extent, but there are other factors in play here as well:

 

1) In the Drury auction you are necessarily a passed hand (because the person on your right has to be a passed hand to use Drury). The same is not true in the case of a 3C Bergen raise.

 

2) Drury auctions take place at the 2-level and takeout doubles after the opps have had a Drury auction are pretty much balancing bids that normally result in you playing at the 3-level (or in 2S if hearts is there suit) or in you pushing the opps to the 3-level. On the other hand, a Bergen raise commits the opps to playing at the 3-level so if you make a takeout double in these auctions your side will usually end up at the 4-level if you are going to play the hand. In other words, you are not balancing anymore - you are expressing game interest when you make a takeout double at this level.

 

3) Opener's range is the same regardless of whether or not responder bids Drury or makes a Bergen raise, but responder usually has less in high cards when he makes a Bergen 3C raise. This increases the chances that the deal "belongs to you" in terms of balance of high card power. Also, opener will know this and may try to steal from you with an advance sacrifice with a hand like:

 

AKQxxxx

Qxxx

xx

x

 

So if you wait over a Bergen raise to see where the opps end up and try to judge how strong your partner is based on the opp's bidding, you will have trouble judging accurately - opener may be bidding game on shape, not on high cards. The same is true in the case of Drury, but here responder has more in high cards (which reduces your game prospects) and, in the Drury auction, it is not especially likely that the deal belongs to you at a high level regardless (because you are a passed hand and because your partner could not overcall).

 

In my view it is best to play the double of Bergen constructive raise as a "takeout double", but the double of a Bergen limit raise as a lead directing double. Most experts in the USA seem to agree with this view, but I do not exactly have a strong opinion about any of this.(whereas my opinion about the Jacoby transfer situation could be characterized as very strong and my opinion about the Drury situation could be characterized as quite strong).

 

Sorry if the above answer is not especially coherant - your question was a tough one Hongjun ;)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[TimG]

1) About 50% of the time opener will either jump to game or make some kind of slam investigation his partner uses Drury.

 

2) About 25% of the time opener will bid 2D in response to Drury (saying "I have a real opening bid, but my hand is not strong enough to commit to game opposite a minimum Drury response").

 

3) About 25% of the time opener with rebid 2 of his major in response to Drury (saying "I do not have a real opening bid").

Doesn't the type of hand you hold change these percentages? For example, if you have a constructive takeout of their major (even given the restriction that you are a passed hand) isn't opener less likely to be making a slam try or jump to game? I don't mean to suggest this will change your conclusion, just that what you hold will affect these percentages.

 

Tim

 

PS To another poster's mention of the possibility of the opponents being in a 4-3 fit: if that is the case and I have a takeout double of their major, partner will know what to do (with his five trumps).

[flytoox]

Fred, this is thought-provoking. Does same argument apply to Bergen raise? For example, 1M-P-3C-?? 3C=7-9HCP 4card raise.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Hongjun

The same argument applies to some extent, but there are other factors in play here as well:

 

1) In the Drury auction you are necessarily a passed hand (because the person on your right has to be a passed hand to use Drury). The same is not true in the case of a 3C Bergen raise.

 

2) Drury auctions take place at the 2-level and takeout doubles after the opps have had a Drury auction are pretty much balancing bids that normally result in you playing at the 3-level (or in 2S if hearts is there suit) or in you pushing the opps to the 3-level. On the other hand, a Bergen raise commits the opps to playing at the 3-level so if you make a takeout double in these auctions your side will usually end up at the 4-level if you are going to play the hand. In other words, you are not balancing anymore - you are expressing game interest when you make a takeout double at this level.

 

3) Opener's range is the same regardless of whether or not responder bids Drury or makes a Bergen raise, but responder usually has less in high cards when he makes a Bergen 3C raise. This increases the chances that the deal "belongs to you" in terms of balance of high card power. Also, opener will know this and may try to steal from you with an advance sacrifice with a hand like:

 

AKQxxxx

Qxxx

xx

x

 

So if you wait over a Bergen raise to see where the opps end up and try to judge how strong your partner is based on the opp's bidding, you will have trouble judging accurately - opener may be bidding game on shape, not on high cards. The same is true in the case of Drury, but here responder has more in high cards (which reduces your game prospects) and, in the Drury auction, it is not especially likely that the deal belongs to you at a high level regardless (because you are a passed hand and because your partner could not overcall).

 

In my view it is best to play the double of Bergen constructive raise as a "takeout double", but the double of a Bergen limit raise as a lead directing double. Most experts in the USA seem to agree with this view, but I do not exactly have a strong opinion about any of this.(whereas my opinion about the Jacoby transfer situation could be characterized as very strong and my opinion about the Drury situation could be characterized as quite strong).

 

Sorry if the above answer is not especially coherant - your question was a tough one Hongjun ;)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Thanks very much Fred. Your answer is always more than I expected.