Serious error?

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&w=sak63ht742d964c73&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=2n(20-22)p6npp?]200|300|

BAM scoring.

Good opponents.

Your call?

 

see Information topic in Laws and Rulings Forum

 

[/hv]

[ggwhiz]

Serious error doesn't begin to describe double. How about Homer Simpson, DOH!

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&w=sak63ht742d964c73&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=2n(20-22)p6npp?]200|300|

BAM scoring.

Good opponents.

Your call?

 

see Information topic in Laws and Rulings Forum

 

[/hv]

If you double, where can the opponents run to? Answer Nowhere

Double,then lead out your two top spades and kill the slam in its cradle... :D

[mikeh]

Two issues of relevance.

 

1. what are the odds that your teammates will bid a slam off two cashing tricks? If the answer is that you expect your teammates to usually have the means to avoid this result, then double rates to be unnecessary. +100 will score no better than +50.

 

This is difficult to estimate, since maybe LHO was looking at 13 hcp and assumed that a quantitative sequence was unnecessary, since they hold at least 33...and your teammates would probably make the same calls.

 

2. if we double, will they run and, if so, with what likely result?

 

Here, again, we are guessing. If LHO did this on a 4432 or 4333 13 count, then they usually can't run to better than -100 even if partner leads the wrong suit, and may easily be 300. So LHO may sit, and it won't do RHO any good to run since you are on lead.

 

Otoh, if LHO has bid this way with a 6 card suit or any other extra shape, they may have 12 winners or even 13 in LHO's suit, and he is definitely running.

 

The 'good' opps probably have a way of showing shape and slam interest over 2N. Now, they may disdain that at BAM to try to steal a board, but I have no reason to think that to be likely. Therefore, the odds seem to favour the purely quantitative bid with nowhere to go and/or a place to go that still fails by a trick at the 7 level.

 

So I double.

 

I would pass at imps.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

What if North pulls to 7 of his long running minor ?

You won't be on lead and they may have "14" tricks without a ♠ lead .

[dake50]

I would never double as my teammates aren't off one in 6Nt.

That is, this BAM double only wins 1/2 MP-BAM if my teammates are -50. Mine aren't.

[PhilG007]

I would never double as my teammates aren't off one in 6Nt.

That is, this BAM double only wins 1/2 MP-BAM if my teammates are -50. Mine aren't.

 

Can I believe my eyes???? Holding 2 certain tricks and on lead against a NT slam

you would NOT double??? Show me how 6NT wouldn't fail on the lead of the AS or KS??

Am I missing something???

[wyman]

Double,then lead out your two top spades and kill the slam in its cradle... :D

 

Wrong forum.

[wyman]

Can I believe my eyes???? Holding 2 certain tricks and on lead against a NT slam

you would NOT double??? Show me how 6NT wouldn't fail on the lead of the AS or KS??

Am I missing something???

 

Yes, which is why you're in the wrong forum.

[Finch]

Am I missing something???

 

Yes. Try reading the other posts and thinking about it before posting.

[cherdano]

Didn't Justin have a story where he worked out that a double of 6NT was based on AK on lead, he pulled to 7m, and they didn't guess the right lead?

 

Of course, with proper agreements it is fairly safe to double, as I can double 7x to ask partner to lead a higher-ranking suit.

 

P.S.: I can really recommend the "hide" function of BBF...

[mikeh]

Didn't Justin have a story where he worked out that a double of 6NT was based on AK on lead, he pulled to 7m, and they didn't guess the right lead?

 

Of course, with proper agreements it is fairly safe to double, as I can double 7x to ask partner to lead a higher-ranking suit.

 

P.S.: I can really recommend the "hide" function of BBF...

I'm not saying that Justin doesn't but I am pretty such that Garozzo, in the round robin in Verona, in 2006, got doubled and ran, successfully, to 7 minor.

 

That was at imps, where the double was really silly, but in fairness, the auction, as here, had hidden the long suit.

 

BAM does import an entirely different thought process, since one is looking only for likelihood of gain rather than risk/reward.

 

The really bad imp factor is that the double, to beat the contract one trick, would add 0 imps to the swing, assuming the opps played a notrump game making 5. So the double stood to gain precisely nothing and risked (and cost) a huge amount.

[nige1]

Serious error doesn't begin to describe double. How about Homer Simpson, DOH!

Double,then lead out your two top spades and kill the slam in its cradle... :D

Agree with mikeh that double is OK.

• The bidding might be similar in the other room and the player in your seat might double. Perhaps he won't realise what geniuses he's up against :(
• Philg007 is right that if you lead ♠AK then 6N will fail, Opponents don't know whether you hold a couple of As rather than AK. That makes removal a risky tactic.
• As cherdano says, in this and similar situations, an expert partnership may agree that if you double RHO and subsequently LHO becomes declarer in another contract, then double asks partner for a particular lead (say ♠) whereas pass suggests another suit.
• Finally, even if your partnership lacks that agreement -- and opponents somehow become aware of that chink in your armour -- you may still elect to double, in an attempt to flatten the board, when more sophisticated defenders in the other room do have such an agreement.

[sathyab]

Two issues of relevance.

 

1. what are the odds that your teammates will bid a slam off two cashing tricks? If the answer is that you expect your teammates to usually have the means to avoid this result, then double rates to be unnecessary. +100 will score no better than +50.

 

This is difficult to estimate, since maybe LHO was looking at 13 hcp and assumed that a quantitative sequence was unnecessary, since they hold at least 33...and your teammates would probably make the same calls.

 

2. if we double, will they run and, if so, with what likely result?

 

Here, again, we are guessing. If LHO did this on a 4432 or 4333 13 count, then they usually can't run to better than -100 even if partner leads the wrong suit, and may easily be 300. So LHO may sit, and it won't do RHO any good to run since you are on lead.

 

Otoh, if LHO has bid this way with a 6 card suit or any other extra shape, they may have 12 winners or even 13 in LHO's suit, and he is definitely running.

 

The 'good' opps probably have a way of showing shape and slam interest over 2N. Now, they may disdain that at BAM to try to steal a board, but I have no reason to think that to be likely. Therefore, the odds seem to favour the purely quantitative bid with nowhere to go and/or a place to go that still fails by a trick at the 7 level.

 

So I double.

 

I would pass at imps.

 

When partner opens 2nt, I am not familiar with any methods specifically geared toward figuring out if AK of a suit is missing. Most people would simply check for Aces and bid 6nt if two are not missing. Given that, it's interesting that responder bid a direct 6nt. Was he afraid that say 4♣ could be doubled ? Or may be he had exactly 13 and could therefore eliminate the possibility of two missing Aces, assuming partner rarely upgrades a 19 count to a 2nt.

[the hog]

Well, I am not going to X. I think the odds of running to 7m are remote, but this is BAM and I already think I have won this board. I might lead the Ace and then hesitate a while to annoy declarer, though.

[gordontd]

I would never double as my teammates aren't off one in 6Nt.

That is, this BAM double only wins 1/2 MP-BAM if my teammates are -50. Mine aren't.

They may or may not be. Why are you so sure they aren't? Maybe this is a completely standard auction (or do you know that your team-mates never bid 6NT with less than 34hcp?)

[eagles123]

Can I believe my eyes???? Holding 2 certain tricks and on lead against a NT slam

you would NOT double??? Show me how 6NT wouldn't fail on the lead of the AS or KS??

Am I missing something???

 

[gwnn]

Didn't Justin have a story where he worked out that a double of 6NT was based on AK on lead, he pulled to 7m, and they didn't guess the right lead?

 

Of course, with proper agreements it is fairly safe to double, as I can double 7x to ask partner to lead a higher-ranking suit.

 

P.S.: I can really recommend the "hide" function of BBF...

Yes he did. I was trying to find that thread (should be around 2006-2007) a few years ago but I couldn't, what with all the different nicknames and "Jlall (guest)"-s.

 

The auction was:

1NT-p-2C-p

2D-p-6NT-p

p-x-p-p

7C-x-all pass (or doubled by the other guy)

 

Hence 7C was rightsided. I believe helene_t also made a post in this thread making much the same argument about lead-directing doubles.

[mgoetze]

If the goal of posting in the expert forum was to get mainly experts to participate in the poll, this has been a miserable failure. ;)

[gnasher]

I remember, in an IMP pairs at an American national, being on lead against 6NT with an AK to cash. I didn't double. The next day I saw the same hand in the bulletin: somebody had made 7 of a suit after being doubled in 6NT. I felt very smug.

[lamford]

I remember, in an IMP pairs at an American national, being on lead against 6NT with an AK to cash. I didn't double. The next day I saw the same hand in the bulletin: somebody had made 7 of a suit after being doubled in 6NT. I felt very smug.

This is an inevitable and common consequence of IMP pairs (an action being potentially right in that format but wrong in another, not you feeling smug). IMP pairs is a slightly different game from BAM. Most people think that it's a better game overall, but that doesn't mean that it's better in every respect.

 

If Mr Smug is partnering Futile Willie in the other room, that makes double a huge winner here at BAM. Mr Smug will not double because he will fear Futile Willie will find the wrong lead against 7x. You will collect your +200 against +100 and win the board at least 90% of the time. The stories that people dine out on are the other 10%. Am I bovvered?

 

Finally, you should have the agreement that if you double 6NT and then double 7x, you want a spade lead. If you double 6NT and pass 7x you want a heart lead, and you don't double 6NT in the unlikely event you want a minor suit lead against 7x, if you fear them running. Doesn't everyone have this agreement?

[Vampyr]

Most people think that it's a better game overall, but that doesn't mean that it's better in every respect.

 

I loathe IMP pairs.

[nige1]

If the goal of posting in the expert forum was to get mainly experts to participate in the poll, this has been a miserable failure. ;)

The players involved are experts. Hence this is the appropriate forum.

 

The poll is public, so you can see who votes for what. Many of those who have voted are experts, even if they don't meet Mgoetze's standards. Super-experts like Mgoetze can help redress any imbalance by voting too :)

[lamford]

Serious error doesn't begin to describe double. How about Homer Simpson, DOH!

 

Teaching 10 year olds bridge has the Benjamin Button effect. Mentally I'm down to my early 20's and sinking fast.

Be careful! Benjamin Button showed early signs of dementia when he became a preteen. No doubt he would have thought doubling 6NT at BAM was a serious error too.

[gnasher]

IMP pairs is a slightly different game from BAM. Most people think that it's a better game overall, but that doesn't mean that it's better in every respect.

I don't think it's a better game in any respect.

 

If Mr Smug is partnering Futile Willie in the other room, that makes double a huge winner here at BAM. Mr Smug will not double because he will fear Futile Willie will find the wrong lead against 7x. You will collect your +100 against +50 and win the board at least 90% of the time. The stories that people dine out on are the other 10%. Am I bovvered?

I think you mean "If Mr Smug is partnering Futile Willie in the other room and their opponents also bid to 6NT."

 

The relevant question is not how often you'll win the board, but how often you'll convert a tie to a win or a loss to a tie, compared with how often you'll convert a tie to a loss or (counted double) a win to a loss.