eagles123 Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 presume Matchpoints [hv=pc=n&e=sakj9h975d84cak85&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1h]133|200[/hv] any bid here Thanks Eagles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 If your style is to overcall 4 card suits, as is the case for several BBF posters, then this hand probably qualifies. It is not my way so I would pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Count me in. All conditions are right for a four card overcall: good hand, strong suit, all white at matchpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcphee Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Although I am good, nothing good happens when you have 3 little in openers bid suit. I will get another chance, partner may bid, maybe I'll get shut out, who knows. Would be more anxious to act if I held a 4th H, now 1S holds a lot more appeal to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerE Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 1st Choice: Pass 2nd Choice: Pass 3rd Choice: Pass Don't like 1♠, even though I'm not opposed to 4 card overcalls at all. This is just sort of in that "uncanny valley" where you kinda want to bid again if partner makes some minimum noise, but you don't really have the values for it. Also ♥xxx is v. bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenG Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Is double so bad? If you get a 2♦ reply, you're unlikely to get left in, and it's not necessarily disastrous at MPs if you are. Otherwise, if partner has anything, you may get to push them to 3♥ which looks defensible. 1♠ guarantees 5 cards for me, so it's not a choice. If I pass, I find it difficult to see how partner will find anything intelligent. Giving up the partscore battle doesn't usually go well with that sort of hand at MPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 I would certainly bid 1♠. If the red suits were reversed I would double. I am not going to stay out of the auction with a good hand and a strong 4 card spade suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles123 Posted September 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 thx folks, happy to admit I was wrong here :) This happened in a post-mortem teaching session. I chose to X. My thought was I had 4 of the other major, a pretty strong hand and if P was to bid 2D then it was fairly likely to be a 5 card suit so it was worth the risk. But I can see with no votes so far it was the wrong action! Thanks, Eagles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Eagles, partner sometimes bids 3♦... (having said that, you have enough over 3♦ to look for 3NT. But probably not enough to play 4 of anything if partner doesn't have hearts stopped). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion77 Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 I bid 1♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 I bid 1♠Yes and WTP to be honest. I suggest those with other ideas read Mike Lawrence's book "Overcalls". 1♠=10 Double=6 Pass=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Double for me! It's a style question, really. A 2-card minor is less of an issue for me than pass being super wide-ranged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 I would double as well. Second choice 1♠. Pass is not in the frame. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 This is a clear double in the Intermediate/Advanced forum but I just can't bring myself to vote for it in the Novice/Beginner section, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 1S is clear for me. You have an excellent suit and a good hand. Double would be my second choice. Pass is a very poor call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 This is a clear double in the Intermediate/Advanced forum but I just can't bring myself to vote for it in the Novice/Beginner section, sorry. Ah. so what would it be in the Expert forum??:huh: But seriously, if it is the right call in the I/A forum why would it make a difference in the N/B? I may be missing something, but I sort of gather that there is nothing especially complicated about the hand. It is just down to whether you expect to lose more by promising a 3rd Diamond that you haven't got with a double or by suggesting longer Spades than you have with a 1S overcall. Presumably if partner bids 2D opposite the double you stand it and hope that he has 5 of them or that it is no great disaster if he only has 4. No strange artificial followups are in the frame. I don't have a strong opinion about which is better. I only insist that it is within partner's expected parameters. But I am a bit surprised by the comment if only because beginners are taught that overcalling on a 4 card suit is a bit of a no-no. Has you said it was a clear double in the N/B section but 1S in the I/A I would at least have understood the sentiment without necessarily agreeing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 I would overcall 1S, but I'm not opposed to dbl. If I pass now, I've endplayed myself into passing if LHO bids 2H or 3H(wk) and it comes back to me, and that just feels wrong at pairs. I sympathize with the NB/IA discussion here, but despite posting in NB, eagles is I. Plus I think telling a novice "look, we don't usually overcall 4 card suits, nor do we dbl with a doubleton in an unbid, but the conditions here are a perfect storm: we can make a cheap (1-level) overcall, we're overcalling a very chunky suit, we have a very good hand, we want a spade led or led back, and - perhaps most importantly - we rarely ever are checking out at the 2-level when opps have a fit, and passing now may really create a bidding problem for us on the next round," is totally fine. I mean, I'm not totally convinced of how I should rate X, 1S, and P, but at least I can share the fundamentals (that I am fairly convinced are sound) that went into my decision, and those are valuable for a player of any skill level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 Ah. so what would it be in the Expert forum??:huh: How would I know, do I look like an expert or something? :P Plus I think telling a novice "look, we don't usually overcall 4 card suits, nor do we dbl with a doubleton in an unbid, but the conditions here are a perfect storm: we can make a cheap (1-level) overcall, we're overcalling a very chunky suit, we have a very good hand, we want a spade led or led back, and - perhaps most importantly - we rarely ever are checking out at the 2-level when opps have a fit, and passing now may really create a bidding problem for us on the next round," is totally fine. No doubt, except that what I would say is "I double with a doubleton in an unbid minor all the time, there's nothing wrong with it at all" and I'm not sure that is the right thing to teach beginners. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 "I double with a doubleton in an unbid minor all the time, there's nothing wrong with it at all" and I'm not sure that is the right thing to teach beginners. ;) It isn't, but when beginners improve, they ask about hands that do not conform to the basics they were taught. And in that case it is generally right to give the "real" answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 1♠ guarantees 5 cards for me, so it's not a choice. IMO, "guaranteeing" five cards does not necessarily mean that I have them, and does not mean that you shouldn't overcall if you think it's right. If partner is really rigid about this, there's always, "sorry, I had a diamond in with my spades". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenG Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 IMO, "guaranteeing" five cards does not necessarily mean that I have them, and does not mean that you shouldn't overcall if you think it's right. If partner is really rigid about this, there's always, "sorry, I had a diamond in with my spades".The problem is that partner will bid as though I have five. I don't want to be getting too high and going off in 3♠ or 4♠ if they can't make 3♥. A response structure that caters for partner overcalling with four isn't normal in the Acol environment in which the original question was set. Maybe other envronments have different response structures? Last time I looked at the vote, none of the 1♠ bidders were Acol players. This is the N/B forum. I think answers should assume that partner is intermediate at most, and keep it rigorous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monikrazy Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 1S seems vastly superior to double, assuming we are using the doubles for takeouts, and appears to be the best bid available overall. Like other posters have said, misrepresenting out diamond length is a major problem (and more so without any diamond honors). 1♥ - DBL - 3♥ (weak)1♥ - DBL - 4♥ (weak) In auctions like the above partner may put us in ♦, counting on 3 or 4 card support and we can go down for major penalty. Compare that to the downside of our partner playing us for an extra spade; partner can hardly be too upset seeing our full values for over-call. Moreover, we will frequently have space to slow down if partner has game-seeking values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 When partner bids like that he will have 6+ cards in diamonds basically always. With 54 in minors either way he has x or 4NT available and 5332 can shut up or double (responsive) but anyway that is very unlikely given our hand. We stand to lose a lot more if partner freely supports us on 3 cards amidst competition because he will not look for an alternative strain normally, not even with a 5- or 6-card side minor. Sure he can make a fit bid if you play that but most people play raises thereof as forcing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles123 Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 The problem is that partner will bid as though I have five. I don't want to be getting too high and going off in 3♠ or 4♠ if they can't make 3♥. A response structure that caters for partner overcalling with four isn't normal in the Acol environment in which the original question was set. Maybe other envronments have different response structures? Last time I looked at the vote, none of the 1♠ bidders were Acol players. This is the N/B forum. I think answers should assume that partner is intermediate at most, and keep it rigorous. Yes overcalling with 4 isn't normally the done thing in Acol (at least at my level) but I can see why it might be the best bid due to the problem with diamonds :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles123 Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 The problem is that partner will bid as though I have five. I don't want to be getting too high and going off in 3♠ or 4♠ if they can't make 3♥. A response structure that caters for partner overcalling with four isn't normal in the Acol environment in which the original question was set. Maybe other envronments have different response structures? Last time I looked at the vote, none of the 1♠ bidders were Acol players. This is the N/B forum. I think answers should assume that partner is intermediate at most, and keep it rigorous. duplicate post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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