atb

[wank]

imps. no special agreements, though 5s was meant and taken as a general invite, not asking for anything specific.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skt95ha52daqcajt2&n=saj8643hk4dj654c9&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1c2h2s3h4hp4sp5sppp]266|200[/hv]

[dake50]

Tough one.

With no prime card outside their hearts, North only has "partner suggested 6S" with his 5S bid to reason on.

I like a 6-th spade, I like a C-sngl (maybe it doesn't duplicate partner's CAKQ/CKQJ).

I have about my minimum hcp to have made a positive over 2H.

I'd go 6S, but I have a rep for finding 120% of slams.

[aguahombre]

I dunno. If the 2S bid was well within partnership expectation, I might consider the extra Spade and second round controls in two side suits to be just fine for a 6-bid. In standard, I dont' believe 2S was a stretch; it was right on.

 

But, again, I dunno. Maybe North felt his free 2S was on the weak side of expectations vs a neg double followed by 3S.

[gnasher]

It's tricky because North probably thought he was opposite short hearts, and there's no wastage in spades. However, a hand like KQxx x Axx AKxxx would make slam good, so I think North should bid it.

[Fluffy]

Want a relaxing cup of café con leche Andy?

[Fluffy]

For what its worth, the hand fits perfectly, ♠Q its taken, club short is golden when it looks bad etc. If anyone should do more it is south IMO. Opposite any hand that contains ♠A and the likely singleton heart he already has chances for slam, although finesses are through the wrong opponent.

 

BTW 5♥ by south looks better than 5♠ to me, whatever partner can ever thinks the difference is between the 2 bids we are in a better possition, we are stronger, we have heart first round control and we don't care about trump quality.

[gnasher]

Want a relaxing cup of café con leche Andy?

Oh yes, sorry - that hand would make 5♠ good. I no longer blame North.

[aguahombre]

Even though there was no prior agreement about the 5S bid, IMO there is a big difference between Andy's example hand and the one in the OP.

 

I don't believe Andy's example would have cue'd 4H and then bid 5S, but I do believe the OP hand would. First round controls everywhere looking for a couple 2nd's seems about right.

[Zelandakh]

How about if the auction went: 1♠ - (2♥) - 2♠ - (3♥); 4♣ - 4♥; 5♥? Would this not make it easier for North to see that the good spades are golden? Playing Asking Bids would be even better - South could find out that North holds club and heart controls along with ♠A.

[mcphee]

North sure holds a fine hand but looks at a lot of D losers and may hold a wasted K of H. The short C is no major bonus either when, as the bidding sounds to date, partner may well have some D length. South on the other hand is massive facing a freely mentioned 2S with controls all over and clearly felt is H cue bid was not enough. If he was going to bid again (and why not) I think that 5D would have been more helpful. Consider if your RHO had passed 2S, you would be making a 3H cue and then making another cue bid after creating the GF when partner re-bids S cheaply. Good that the opening hand tried again, but imo The control rich hand could have had less and should have bid 5D.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Seems like almost everyone stays away from 4NT as RKCB.

I think 4NT-RKCB is what South should bid instead of 5S.

[Lorne50]

Should South bid 5♥ rather than 5♠ ?

 

I seem to remember somebody once describing that as a 'sweep cue bid' promising all 3 aces as any hand with just one ace could not justify going on in such an auction - after all North did sign off over 3♥ which already shows a good raise in spades.

[ArtK78]

Seems like almost everyone stays away from 4NT as RKCB.

I think 4NT-RKCB is what South should bid instead of 5S.

Agree. Quite frankly, assuming that North's 2♠ bid is reasonably sound, South should probably not settle for less than slam. So, key card on the remote chance that there may be a grand (unlikely given North's signoff, but if you are going to bid 6 anyway, it costs you nothing to try).

[Fluffy]

Seems like almost everyone stays away from 4NT as RKCB.

I think 4NT-RKCB is what South should bid instead of 5S.

 

What does it help you for? what will you do opposite zero keycards?

[helene_t]

Is it conceivable that North has zero keycards and not the queen? Barely, I think. And even if he has, 6♠ still has good play as empty spaces suggest the finesse works. And even if the queen is offside we have the added chance of East having the ace sec and West Qx.

 

And even if North has the ace and the queen I still don't want to be in grand.

 

So I don't think RKC helps us.

[ArtK78]

Is it conceivable that North has zero keycards and not the queen? Barely, I think. And even if he has, 6♠ still has good play as empty spaces suggest the finesse works. And even if the queen is offside we have the added chance of East having the ace sec and West Qx.

 

And even if North has the ace and the queen I still don't want to be in grand.

 

So I don't think RKC helps us.

I agree that finding North with the AQ of spades will not allow us to bid the grand. But it is remotely possible, even after a sign off, that partner will be able to bid the grand knowing that we have all of the key cards and that I am still interested.

 

Such a hand might be inconsistent with his signoff in 4♠. Still, maybe partner has a surprise.

 

In any event, I am not stopping short of slam.

[mikeh]

Seems like almost everyone stays away from 4NT as RKCB.

I think 4NT-RKCB is what South should bid instead of 5S.

This seems to me like a classic "I think we have slam, let's use keycard" approach, which is something I have criticized before and will continue to criticize whenever it rears its head.

 

Please explain how it is that S can place the contract correctly given all foreseeable keycard responses?

 

Unless S can comfortably deal with every foreseeable response he should not keycard.

 

If you argue that S can reasonably gamble that N has one keycard, I really couldn't argue very strongly, but.....please explain how finding one keycard helps?

 

AQJxxx Qx Jxx xx Please place the contract.

 

AQJxxx Kx xxxx x Please place the contract.

 

Please explain how you avoid slam on the 1st one and bid it on the 2nd.

 

If your answer is that you can't solve this issue, then ask yourself why you created the problem.

 

Involving partner's judgment won't always be more effective, but now you at least have both players using their skill, rather than you creating a pure guessing situation. Even if your current partners can't bid effectively using judgment, they surely will never improve unless you start trying.

[Finch]

If you think the South hand is a slam drive, I don't see the point of keycard; just bid 6S. You can't have grand on opposite a sign-off.

If you don't think the South hand is a slam drive, I don't see the point of keycard because it won't tell you anything useful.

 

FWIW I think the blame, if any, is with North. 5S must show all the side aces and North has a 6th spade and some extra shape.

[karlson]

Surprised by these replies a little -- I think south should just bid a slam. Seems like it rates to be good opposite some very mundane hands. Perhaps not if you know the opponents will always bid more than this with 9 hearts, but I don't see why they necessarily should.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Seems like almost everyone stays away from 4NT as RKCB.

I think 4NT-RKCB is what South should bid instead of 5S.

I was never thinking of the grand on this auction.

If North shows the missing key card, I'll just bid 6S .

If North doesn't have it, I'm signing off in 5S .

[Poky]

South 100%.

 

4♥ leads nowhere. This hand is an auto RKCB.

 

A minimal North didn't know what was going on so he opted for a careful pass (not that a raise would have been an error).

[mikeh]

South 100%.

 

4♥ leads nowhere. This hand is an auto RKCB.

 

A minimal North didn't know what was going on so he opted for a careful pass (not that a raise would have been an error).

Another vote for the completely useless keycard. Does any of these keycarders ever ask why they use keycard?

 

I gave two example hands for partner, both containing a keycard and both having a better spade suit than the OP. One made slam very good and the other made it hopeless. Neither appeared at all inconsistent with the bidding, especially if you accept that 2♠ was an acceptable call on the actual hand.

 

None of the keycard voters have addressed this issue at all.

 

I think Frances had it right: if, as S, you feel that you should be in slam opposite a signoff in 4♠, bid it. Keycard is just silly. If you think it worth an invite, then make the invite...I think Frances is correct, again, in arguing that 5♠ should show the side Aces. This wasn't part of the OP, but if one accepts that 4♥ shows spades, then the failure to cue bid means that whatever we are missing, it isn't a cuebiddable Ace. As for 4♥ showing spades, we didn't need to cuebid to show a one round force...any non-game call we made was forcing one round over 3♥, so to me 4♥ unequivocally showed spades or the ability to handle any action partner might take thinking we had spades.

[cherdano]

I don't even agree that 4N is keycard. With a balanced 18 count, we don't have a bid if 4N is keycard. If we want to bid keycard, we can just bid 4♥: it will be rare that partner doesn't bid 4♠, doesn't keycard himself, and we won't be able to guess confidently in the auction starting with his 5-level cuebid.

[Fluffy]

I was never thinking of the grand on this auction.

If North shows the missing key card, I'll just bid 6S .

If North doesn't have it, I'm signing off in 5S .

 

♠A has nothing to do with this hand, can you create any partner's hand where he has singleton low heart where slam is not cold? I would find it very difficult, in fact the only chance for that is to lose ♠Q and another card, so missing ♠A you will most likely be totally cold, like ♠QJxxx ♥x ♦KJxx ♣Kxx

[MrAce]

I will skip the reply to 4 NT key carders...I am sure at some point Phil will tell them that they are in wrong forum http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

 

It is tuff hand i agree, i would have bid slam (unless i am resulting, which may as well be the case, i admit) with N hand. He already showed no interest over 4♥, now he has extra trump and shape (6-4) and i don't see why he should believe S has shortage in hearts, so i think his Kx ♥ is not as bad as people think it is.

 

I can not find anything wrong with South bidding, holding an 18 hcp balanced. He did not have any reason to believe his pd was short in hearts that would make Axx hearts very valuable, pd would probably bid slam with good spades and stiff heart over our 2nd attempt. Those who blames south must have more expectations from a 2♠ response than i do.