Assign the Blame?

[badderzboy]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=saxhkj10xdkqjxxcaj&s=skjxxhqxxdaxxckxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Bidding...

..N....E....S....W...

1♦..1♥..2♥*....P

3NT...P....P....P[/hv]

 

2♥ is showing a good hand but no meaningful bid and is forcing.

We also play Negative doubles promising about 8-11 and min 3 card support in a major...

 

 

6NT makes - who made the bad bid and how should it go instead?

 

Steve

[EricK]

South does have a meaningful bid - 1♠. If you would have reached the slam after 1♦ (P) 1♠ then there is no reason why you won't reach it after the ♥ intervention. If you wouldn't have reached it after that start, then I don't think you should expect to reach it after the intervention.

 

However, if systemically 2♥ is the bid on the South hand, and if North can expect at least 12 points from partner, then he is too strong for 3NT and should bid 4NT instead. South with bolsters in ♥ & ♦ and controls in the outside suits will accept the try.

 

Eric

[badderzboy]

Over the 1♥ then 1♠ would promise 5 ♠'s here I think!

 

In an unopposed auction then 1♦-1♠-3NT-6NT would be the likely auction

 

Steve

[EricK]

I've had no experience of using take out doubles with such a limited range. It seems that it will make life very difficult if there is a 1♠ overcall and third hand has 4♥ in a strong hand but has to start with a cue-bid.

 

Of course, if the take out double were unlimited, it would again be easy as you could reproduce your unopposed auction (1♦ (1♥) X 3NT 6NT).

 

Eric

[hotShot]

2♥ is strong and forcing (unlimited), should be short in ♥ or stronger.

3NT now shows a minimum hand with ♥ stopper.

 

I dislike both bids, but i need to know:

 

What would 1♦ - 1♥ - dbl mean and what would 1♦ - 1♥ - 2NT show. I assume dbl would need at least 4♣'s, and 2NT should have a better ♥'s.

Overall 2♥ seems to be acceptable.

3 NT is a bad bid, P gave a forcing bid, to know more about your hand.

Bidding NT is a limiting bid, even with a jump to game, the hand is to strong for that.

What would 3♥, 4♦, 4♣ and 4[NT] mean in your system?

[kgr]

I suppose 2♥ GF? Then North can bid 2NT instead of 3NT. Principle of Fast arrival (In GF situation an immediate raise to game is weaker then a lower bid).

[the hog]

"Over the 1♥ then 1♠ would promise 5 ♠'s here I think!"

 

And why is this so? Seems silly to me.

[pbleighton]

1) "We also play Negative doubles promising about 8-11 and min 3 card support in a major..." You should play 1m-1H-X showing exactly 4 spades and unlimited points (the standard treatment). If you did, then X would show your hand in this auction. You effectively have no good bid for 12+ with 4 spades.

2) Given your system, opener should rebid 4NT (quantitative).

 

Peter

[Free]

If 2♥ is GF, north has some blame, since he should bid 2NT (stronger ofcourse than 3NT)

However, the 2♥ bid is quite silly imo. Dbl is a lot better (yes Ron, most people still play negative doubles and 1♠ as 5+ card :o ) imo.

[xx1943]

2♥ is showing a good hand but no meaningful bid and is forcing.

We also play Negative doubles promising about 8-11 and min 3 card support in a major...

Hi Steve

 

imo the definition of your bids is the problem.

 

After the intervention you are in a better situation than without, bcause you have ab idle bid (double) and new meanings for all jumps and the cuebid of 2♥

 

In my system (I call it KS ince 40 years) the meanings are:

 

double is negative and shows ecaxtly 4 spades 6+ HCP unlimited just as if you had bid 1♠ without intervention.

 

1♠ shows 5+ spades and 6+ HCP unlimited

 

2♥ shows the äquivalent for an strong jump shift.

 

Btw. I have very strict appointments about SJS: The strong jump shift has three different meanings:

1) tremendous support for openers suit

2) 6+ solid suit playable in 6 opposite a singleton

3) 18+ HCP any distribution

 

2♠ preempt. Same as a 2♠ opener.

 

 

To blame is your system imo. :o

 

Sincerly Al

[pclayton]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=saxhkj10xdkqjxxcaj&s=skjxxhqxxdaxxckxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

Bidding...

..N....E....S....W...

1♦..1♥..2♥*....P

3NT...P....P....P[/hv]

 

2♥ is showing a good hand but no meaningful bid and is forcing.

We also play Negative doubles promising about 8-11 and min 3 card support in a major...

 

 

6NT makes - who made the bad bid and how should it go instead?

 

Steve

I kind of like taking a piece out of 1♥ x'd myself. Looks like 1100 to me.

[HeartA]

 

double is negative and shows ecaxtly 4 spades 6+ HCP unlimited just as if you had bid 1♠ without intervention.

 

1♠ shows 5+ spades and 6+ HCP unlimited

 

2♥ shows the equivalent for an strong jump shift.

I agree with this arrangement.

[Fluffy]

Its obvious to me that South made the first mistake by not doubling or bidding 1♠ (wichever you do with 4♠ and 7+ HCP).

 

But it is also abvious that if south held

 

KJx

Qxx

Axx

Kxxx

 

He would bid 2♥ and some sort of 6 should be able to be reached

 

1♦-2♥

3♥-3♠!

3NT-4NT

6NT?

 

3♥ is jsut strong

3♠ is an impossible suit, so should be some kind of 4sf or stopper ask

4NT obvious quant

31 aren't normally enough for 6NT, but that 5 card ♦ may be worth that.

[whereagles]

Well, regardless of the merits of N/S's system, one thing is certain: South has a good hand (at the very least 11 hcp), and North has 19 (even 20 if you count the 5th diamond). That being so, the North hand clearly should try for something. The 3NT bid is consistent with a 15-17 hand, so you can hardly blame South for passing that. Another action is in order, and I can only think of cuebidding 3H.

 

I can see it going on like this:

 

1D (1H) 2H

3H........3NT

4NT......6NT

 

2H = good hand, no clear bid.

3H = I have extras. Tell me what you got for your 2H.

3NT = mild hand with a heart half-stopper (with full stopper I would have bid 3NT).

4NT = I see we have tricks in their suit... lol. So, have you any extras? This cannot be blackwood 'cos I'd have bid 4D if I had a 1-suiter.

6NT = I have an extra queen. Hope that will do.

 

I admit this is a bit double dummy, but it's the best I could come up with :)