Do pre-empts work?

[ahydra]

Nobody at the club managed to bid this 15-top-tricker. IMPs, NS are vul. Spots approximate.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqha4daj74cakqt53&n=sa5hkqjt863dkq5c2&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1c3s]266|200[/hv]

 

(feel free to disagree with opening 1C)

 

At our table North bid 6H over 3S and South passed. Our team-mates managed something like (p)-1C-(2S)-4H; 4NT-5S; 6H (why on earth South didn't look for grand I don't know, she mentioned something about being afraid of a 4-1 heart split). Can you do better?

 

ahydra

[aguahombre]

I would not expect, as your teammate did, that a heart loser was an issue. Asking for Kings would guarantee all the Keys, and I believe then North should just bid the grand with an extra trump and the side KQX of Diamonds. Even though 3H rather than 4 was available at the other table, the 3-bid would have left concern about a heart loser --so, 4 should have been a lucky choice.

 

The blast to six hearts by the opponent at your table was not totally unreasonable; he was undoubtedly worried 4H could be viewed as a mere pressure bid and had no idea what a 5H jump would show. The South at your table was equally hamstrung.

[cherdano]

In the auction at your table, 6H is surely right. Obviously you cannot bid 4H (which you would bid with 2.5 tricks less), and 5H (natural slam invite) seems pessmistic. Even if you take away both red aces from partner's hand, you make slam on a spade lead...

But South certainly has a raise, partner isn't so likely to have a void, so he bid 6H missing three first round controls. He won't be missing much else.

 

At the other table, of course 6H is blatantly wrong. But 4H is also a huge underbid, just bid 3H for now and then try for slam. 4H does not show a four-loser hand.

[mikeh]

couldn't put it better than cherdano so won't even try.

[gnasher]

The North hand is a good advert for transfers or Switch.

[Zelandakh]

In your second auction, South has only to bid 4♠ over 4♥ and now North can take control. Having said that, I am no great fan of the direct 4♥ response. Why not start with 3♥ and get some extra information along the way? That said, if the 4♥ jump says "super-strong and hearts are trumps" then it is perfect. But in that case, South would not need to worry about 4-1 hearts; 4-0 perhaps but KQxxxx is hardly the suit for such a bid. I guess the question is precisely what 4♥ was agreed to mean if this heart suit was a realistic possibility.

 

After 3♠ it is much more difficult. I guess a reasonable start would be 4♠, then perhaps 4NT - 6♥ gets across the fact that North has a very powerful hand with solid hearts and first round spade control. That makes it much easier for South to bid the grand.

 

Luckily it is IMPs so it does not matter which one. If it were MPs, getting to 7NT after the 3♠ overcall is a serious challenge. But 7♥ is likely to be enough in any non-expert field. Kinda interested if any of the better players feel they would get to 7NT with their regular partners in practise though, and what agreements they have that make it possible.

[aguahombre]

It would never occur to me that 4H over 2S was anything other than extra length and strength. I am not preempting over a preempt in this situation or any other....Again why I don't think 3H would have been helpful this time.

[Zelandakh]

As a preempt would truly be a silly use. But some might consider playing it as showing the rounded suits. As I wrote above, clearly the South in this auction did not think it showed that or they would not have been worried about a 4-1 trump break. That would leave North with ♥KQxxxx, hardly extra length and strength.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

.... Kinda interested if any of the better players feel they would get to 7NT with their regular partners in practice though, and what agreements they have that make it possible.

Here is a "result" of all "resulting" :

 

( p )- 1C - ( 3S ) - ??

 

Nouth, with no 2-quick losers bids 4NT = RKCB for their last bid suit as trump: ♣ .

 

South replies 5D ( 1 or 4 )

 

North assumes it is 4 key cards which includes the ♣K and can count 13 tricks off the top

and bids 7NT .

[mycroft]

Nice low-level help (I was thinking double) is very susceptible to the spade raise. And sure enough, they do have a 10-card fit. I can't believe at these colours they didn't find a 4♠ call at the other table - even 7♠ likely beats 6♥. I know that 7♠ certainly makes it more likely that you'll be scoring up -2220 and maybe -2210 will have some company, but there it is.

[mikeh]

As a preempt would truly be a silly use. But some might consider playing it as showing the rounded suits. As I wrote above, clearly the South in this auction did not think it showed that or they would not have been worried about a 4-1 trump break. That would leave North with ♥KQxxxx, hardly extra length and strength.

I don't agree. I think that specifically in hearts, over 2♠, or in spades over 3♥, the jump to game can and should be used for a specific type of hand, limited in hcp and slam suitability.

 

We hold, say, x KQJ10xxxx Qx xx

 

Partner deals, and opens 1♦, and RHO bids 2♠. We are never playing less than 4♥ and we surely do not want to suggest defence by bidding 3♥...then we couldn't respect partner's decision to double or pass should they bid 4♠, plus after we double, partner might bid 5♣ on a 2-suiter, expecting a more flexible hand.

 

So I think there is a very real need to be able to announce a good, long suit with playing values and no defence and that we should reserve the jump to game in the OM for this, over an opposing major pre-empt overcall.

 

I don't see this sequence as analogous to the 'don't pre-empt over a pre-empt' rule about their opening pre-empts. There is a huge and critical distinction with the current thread: partner opened the bidding.

[Fluffy]

when you explain transfers or switch there is always a hand like this with from north's POV.

[the hog]

In the auction at your table, 6H is surely right. Obviously you cannot bid 4H (which you would bid with 2.5 tricks less), and 5H (natural slam invite) seems pessmistic. Even if you take away both red aces from partner's hand, you make slam on a spade lead...

But South certainly has a raise, partner isn't so likely to have a void, so he bid 6H missing three first round controls. He won't be missing much else.

 

At the other table, of course 6H is blatantly wrong. But 4H is also a huge underbid, just bid 3H for now and then try for slam. 4H does not show a four-loser hand.

 

I also agree with this posting.

[PhilKing]

After 1♣-3♠, hands with hearts are a real problem. I play something pretty good here, which is loosely based on "Liggins Gerber":

 

4♣ = 6+ hearts, circa 13+

4♦ = natural, GF

4♥ = nat, max circa 12 points

4♠ = clubs, slammish

4NT = two suiter, hearts plus minor, big

 

With clubs, you usually double to keep 3NT in the frame, so losing 4♣ is not bad.

[ahydra]

What is "switch" (the convention)?

 

ahydra

[PhilKing]

What is "switch" (the convention)?

 

ahydra

 

Switch is where you reverse the meaning of the two unbid suits, so 4♦ = ♥ and 4♥ = ♦.

[PhilG007]

IMHO the South hand is just too strong for a simple 1♣ South should open 2♣ Even though West's 3♠ is annoying

North now knows there is a strong hand opposite him(something he wouldn't have known if South had only opened a timid 1♣)

This gives him the go ahead to bid his strong hearts,4♥ When South hears that,he hesitates no longer and bids Blackwood for Aces and Kings Learning North holds 1 Ace and 2 Kings South bids 7♥ without further ado

[aguahombre]

IMHO the South hand is just too strong for a simple 1♣ South should open 2♣ Even though West's 3♠ is annoying

North now knows there is a strong hand opposite him(something he wouldn't have known if South had only opened a timid 1♣)

This gives him the go ahead to bid his strong hearts,4♥ When South hears that,he hesitates no longer and bids Blackwood for Aces and Kings Learning North holds 1 Ace and 2 Kings South bids 7♥ without further ado

Among players with a natural system, I have found the frequency of 2C openers to be inversely proportional to the level of the game.

 

On line>novice>regular club>>>>tournaments. I assume lower flights at tournaments display the same traits as clubs.

[RSClyde]

Here is my view:

After 2♠, since 3♥ is forcing it seems a fine way to start. Over the expected 3♠ (which I play as I don't know where to go), or over 4♥, 4♠ is RKC for hearts. I like the rule, if it looks like kickback then it is. Now you're off to the races.

What will instead happen is that South will bid 4♣ over 3♥. This shows a strong hand as 3♥ was a GF. I now have concerns that 4♠ might not be kickback so I'll just live with 4♦ RKC for clubs which works on this hand.

 

I play jumping to 4♥ as a flexible bid: I'm willing to take a shot at this opposite an opener, if they bid 4♠ double pass or bid on as you find appropriate. This way when you bid 3♥, you actually have a real GF, forcing pass and all. I mean, let's have a show of hands, who likes making a negative double with 8 hearts?

 

After 3♠ instead of 2, I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything being ace asking so I'll just bid 6♥ and if partner can't bid 7 with this hand, I'm getting a new partner. You certainly didn't promise 3 aces and a zillion club tricks to open the bidding.

[beatrix45]

In my Thursday afternoon rubber bridge game (10 cents a point Canadian) all of us play the Blackwood convention. It works well on this hand. I bid 4NT. Partner answers three aces (5♠). I bid 5NT. Partner shows at least one king. I bid 7♥ or 7NT.

 

If we have agreed on a trump suit, then we play RKC 1430. Seems to work well. Can't remember the last time anyone failed to bid a grand with 15 top tricks. Except, of course, for Louise. Then again, Louise is a terrible player.

[PhilG007]

Among players with a natural system, I have found the frequency of 2C openers to be inversely proportional to the level of the game.

 

On line>novice>regular club>>>>tournaments. I assume lower flights at tournaments display the same traits as clubs.

Let's not forget that not all 2♣ openers need 23 points In the example hand if South could rebid 3♣,it is

game forcing and North must reply...even after a 2♦ response

[PhilKing]

Let's not forget that not all 2♣ openers need 23 points In the example hand if South could rebid 3♣,it is

game forcing and North must reply...even after a 2♦ response

 

A word to the wise - you don't need to tell us this sequence is a game force. Regarding the hands on which you choose to use it, all I can say is that you probably live in a free country.

[rmnka447]

I think getting to a minimum of 6 ♥ is right based on the North hand alone opposite most openers. Given that the preemptor has some ♠ honors, opener almost assuredly has to have at least 2 As to have an opener. So there ought to be some reasonable play for 6 in any case.

 

But a key factor is that opener may never be able to fully appreciate how big a playing hand responder has by simply jumping to 6 ♥. So, I would bid 4 ♠ and then follow it up with 6 ♥ over whatever opener bids next.

[Lovera]

I think getting to a minimum of 6 ♥ is right based on the North hand alone opposite most openers. Given that the preemptor has some ♠ honors, opener almost assuredly has to have at least 2 As to have an opener. So there ought to be some reasonable play for 6 in any case.

 

But a key factor is that opener may never be able to fully appreciate how big a playing hand responder has by simply jumping to 6 ♥. So, I would bid 4 ♠ and then follow it up with 6 ♥ over whatever opener bids next.

Interesting topic: both lines can have opportuities (opp to defend till 7♠). I think that 4♠ cue has to be bid showing a strong hand either for support or having a solid own suit (here in heart) and allowing other bidding meanings as mikeh told, because N doesn't think that partner has this powerfull hand. Although i think also that is not necessary to jump to 6♥ but instead bidding 5♥, if opp doesn't bid on, can allow to explore for grand via cue bidding.(Lovera)

[pescetom]

Just like aquahombre e TWO4BRIDGE, I fail to see what is wrong with RKCB over clubs; if there are 4 key cards then 7NT is cold.

 

Of course the partnership agreement must be sufficiently precise to allow and identify RKCB after 3♠ interference, with a casual partner I would have more sympathy for 6♥.