Who Goofed?

[cargobeep]

[hv=pc=n&s=skjt983h765d9cqt3&w=sa42ha92d86543c82&n=s76hjt843dt72cj76&e=sq5hkqdakqjcak954&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=2sppdp3dp4sppp]399|300[/hv]

[TylerE]

What is 4♠ supposed to be? I don't even get the question being asked here. Is it "Who passed a cuebid that shouldn't have been made?" 100% blame to both players.

[cargobeep]

^ Well then O wise one, what do you suggest?

 

You can try Blackwood, but even with 2 Aces, you're still more or less guessing if 6x will make. And with one Ace, you don't have a clue what to do next.

 

The only thing making 4S natural wins is if S is psyching or the distribution in Spades is at least 6-6. And if it was 6-6, why would E need/want to consult partner?

[TylerE]

X - 3♦

3♠ (Stopper ask) - 3N (have stopper)

 

Now anything E bids is a slam try of some kind.

[cargobeep]

^ Is that standard? Because I'm having trouble finding anything about this

[TylerE]

It should be, on general principles. Basically, you asked a question, got the most positive possible response, and then bid past the contract you were ostensibly trying to get to.

[cargobeep]

^ But it's not standard.

 

So seems to me it's a bit of a blip in the SAYC train. <_<

[TylerE]

You're confusing "SAYC" and "standard". They're not the same thing. Some of the SAYC stuff might have been sort-of club standard 30 years ago, but it's not what any reasonable modern player would want to play. If you're insisting on playing SAYC, you must accept that ~90% of minor suit slams are essentially unbiddable using the system.

[mike777]

from sayc booklet:

 

"Cuebidding right-hand opponent’s suit shows values for game without clear

direction for the moment. This is often used to show a game-forcing raise:

 

COMPETITIVE BIDDING

There is almost an endless variety of possible sequences, so it pays to have

simple guidelines to prevent bidding misunderstandings"

 

http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/SP3%20(bk)%20single%20pages.pdf

 

and yes I know lho bid 2s not rho but extend the principle and use simple guidelines per sayc booklet

 

 

Also understand bidding minor suit slams after opp open 2s can be tough at any level.

Good luck and just file this one away as a lesson.

[the hog]

What is 4♠ supposed to be? I don't even get the question being asked here. Is it "Who passed a cuebid that shouldn't have been made?" 100% blame to both players.

 

I agree. What is 4S and why pass a cue bid. \

Edited August 27, 2013 by inquiry
content. This is the Beginner section.

[mgoetze]

X - 3♦

3♠ (Stopper ask) - 3N (have stopper)

 

Now anything E bids is a slam try of some kind.

This, and yes, it is standard.

 

4♠ should show a singleton or void in spades.

[neilkaz]

X - 3♦

3♠ (Stopper ask) - 3N (have stopper)

 

Now anything E bids is a slam try of some kind.

 

Yes, this is standard and quite useful and something I discuss with new PD's. Its all about common sense. Why would I ask for a stopper and then pull 3NT after you show me a stop?

Why would I ask for a stopper, if not prepared with a place to play if you don't have one (ie your suit). Why would I ask for a stopper and then bid a suit that almost certainly can't want to play in if you deny having a stop?

[neilkaz]

One thing good about N/B is that no question should be too simple so I'll ask.

 

After a 2M or 3M preempt, how do you get to 4M if your hand wants to play there? (Yes, opps psyched the preempt)

[BillHiggin]

One thing good about N/B is that no question should be too simple so I'll ask.

 

After a 2M or 3M preempt, how do you get to 4M if your hand wants to play there? (Yes, opps psyched the preempt)

In my college days (a loooong time ago), we sometimes would play bridge late at night with a fair supply of beverages that we were too young to legally purchase! Things like this actually happened in those games! What you cannot do is hope that "double" will somehow be for penalties this time or that a cue bid will actually be "to play". You must pass and then next round (which might not happen) things are different (now the fact that you did not act before is most easily explaoned as a trap pass and so you are actually expected to have length in their suit (and trap passing is an important skill in alcohol drenched games).

 

In practice, it is just not going to happen in a mostly serious game (the psyche is most likely to hit partners length and then phone numbers happen to the jokesters).

[mike777]

Yes, this is standard and quite useful and something I discuss with new PD's. Its all about common sense. Why would I ask for a stopper and then pull 3NT after you show me a stop?

Why would I ask for a stopper, if not prepared with a place to play if you don't have one (ie your suit). Why would I ask for a stopper and then bid a suit that almost certainly can't want to play in if you deny having a stop?

 

 

again this is more than common sense it is part of sayc... a somewhat confusing and more advanced learning part.

 

To be fair common sense often has little to do with bridge bidding as a beginner...a bit more as we play more.

 

Cue bidding and doubles play a huge, huge part of bridge bidding and they are difficult to master or even be competent with.

 

as a new bridge player I would find getting to 6d with confidence very difficult.

 

-----------------

 

 

learning the terminology is important and can be confusing ...for example:

 

cuebid overcall when the opponents have bid two suits is natural in either suit.

A cuebid overcall when the opponents have bid only one suit is a Michaels cuebid

 

fwiw I think we all at one point at had no idea what a cuebid overcall means...

[Endymion77]

If you play Lebensohl, 3♦ shows constructive values so it's a good bid.

 

4♠ is very poor. It shows a slammish hand with a singleton or void in spades in support of diamonds, and asks partner to re-evaluate his hand (spade wastage? controls or soft values?). Did you bid it as a psych?

 

The pass of 4♠ is incomprehensible.

[mike777]

If you play Lebensohl, 3♦ shows constructive values so it's a good bid.

 

4♠ is very poor. It shows a slammish hand with a singleton or void in spades in support of diamonds, and asks partner to re-evaluate his hand (spade wastage? controls or soft values?). Did you bid it as a psych?

 

The pass of 4♠ is incomprehensible.

 

 

clearly you don't understand or forget beginner bridge....

 

what is lebensohl or constructive values....sigh....the rest forget...

 

I love terms such spade wastage or soft values whatever the heck they are.....for beginners.

 

I am sorry but you use terms but don't define and explain and show examples of what the heck they mean or even why we should care.

[cherdano]

What is 4♠ supposed to be? I don't even get the question being asked here. Is it "Who passed a cuebid that shouldn't have been made?" 100% blame to both players.

 

Seems a completely reasonable question to ask to me, this is the forum for future experts, not for current experts.

 

To summarize what others have said:

• If you jump in the opponent's suit, that is usually played as splinter: here shortness in spades, with diamond support. (Always shortness in the opponent's suit, and support for partner's last bid suit.) Very helpful when you want to try for slam.
  
• A cuebid of the opponent's suit at the lowest possible level: this depends a bit on the context, sometimes it shows a good raise for partner's suit, sometimes it is just a strong bid. Here, 3S would initially be a strong big (game-forcing), looking for the best strain. If you then pull 3N to 4D, it becomes a slam try in diamonds.
  

 

So what if the doubler wants to play in spades? Well, if he has a lot of spades, he just has to decide initially whether to pass it out or to show a balanced hand. You can never show a hand that wants to play in spades after making a takeout double of spades. So West should trust that his partner knows this, and never pass a spade bid by East on this auction.

[ahydra]

4S is very odd. As others have said, this would normally be a void (maybe a singleton) in spades and diamond support. In general, 3 of opps suit = ask stop, and that looks the more obvious choice on this hand since East's hand is roughly balanced.

 

After 3NT, East still needs to make something happen though - he has 24 HCP and partner could yet have enough for a grand slam. Using another general principle - cue bid followed by new suit = slam interest - I would start with 4D. This is 100% forcing - after all, East would not ask for a stop then ignore partner's positive response! Now West, holding two Aces, surely must head slamward and check the keycard situation. When he finds out about all the keycards, the DQ and 2 outside kings, he can envisage grand slam and should bid it. (Yes, it needs a little more than just those cards, but there are many ways it can happen eg KQJx in hearts, AKQ of clubs, ruff-out-able clubs, QJ spades in partner's hand with the finesse practically guaranteed.)

 

Of course, passing a cuebid is a definite no-no. If you don't know what a bid means, make an intelligent guess. If you still can't divine anything, you should practically ALWAYS assume it's forcing, and pick the cheapest sensible rebid (often 3NT). You are far more likely to land on your feet if you bid than if you pass - a million times more so when the strange bid is in the opponents' suit!

 

ahydra

[ahydra]

clearly you don't understand or forget beginner bridge....

 

what is lebensohl or constructive values....sigh....the rest forget...

 

I love terms such spade wastage or soft values whatever the heck they are.....for beginners.

 

I am sorry but you use terms but don't define and explain and show examples of what the heck they mean or even why we should care.

 

Mike raises a good point here. I'll go one better and explain the terms for those who might be interested.

 

Lebensohl (as it applies to this situation) is a convention where after an enemy weak 2 is doubled, partner of the doubler can bid 2NT to show a weak hand, normally up to 7 points. This is very useful for doubler because he can have anything from 12 points upwards, but already two entire levels of bidding have disappeared. Doubler, unless holding a HUGE hand, is forced to rebid 3C so that partner can pass or show his suit.

 

Why play it? Well, without playing Lebensohl, doubler holding something like 17 won't know whether to bid game opposite partner's 3x response, which could be fairly wide-ranging. However, playing Lebensohl if partner makes a 3x response he has promised 8+ points (since 0-7 hands go via 2NT) and doubler now knows game is on.

 

Constructive values means "a good hand". It doesn't necessarily mean lots of strength - just "stronger compared to other situations", so might be (partly) based on a good suit. For example, consider responses to overcalls (e.g. LHO opens, partner overcalls, RHO passes, you bid a new suit). You might play these as any one of:

- weak and non-forcing

- constructive (showing, say, a good suit or 9+ points or both), but non-forcing

- constructive and forcing

- strong (perhaps 12+) and forcing

 

Soft values are Qs and Js, often called "quacks". They are called "soft" because they don't produce many tricks (except in your long suits, or the last few tricks of a NT contract). In general when the auction gets very competitive, you can basically write off your soft values as being worth nothing in defence.

 

ahydra

[billw55]

Agree, this deal is a textbook advertisement for using lebensohl in such situations. West wants to show his extra strength, but has no easy natural bid to do so.

 

Using simple methods, 3♦ could be bid with zero points - this makes it hard for east to make a good decision. TylerE's auction is somewhat simple, although N/B players may not recognize the stopper ask. Perhaps simplest of all is for west to bid 2NT (natural) which should show a stopper and modest values. The hand is not ideal for this, but it might be the best you can do with N/B level methods. At least with ♠Axx there is a good chance of isolating south's spades by holding up twice.

 

Anyway, both east's 4♠ and west's final pass are bad bids.

[fbuijsen]

East's initial double is fine. West's 3♦ bid is OK too; though west has quite maximum values for the bid, but the weakness of the suit warrants some cautiousness.

East's 4♠ is a strange bid. The normal standard meaning for the bid is a control in spades (probably first round control even) and slam-going, establishing diamonds as trumps. Note that east doesn't have the promised control.

West's pass of 4♠ is absurd. West actually has a magnificent hand now, with 2 aces. A jump to 6♦ is the simple bid, but it's reasonable to try for the grand slam here, since east is promising a massive hand (inviting slam opposite a possible zero point hand). Still, seeing all hands it feels like a bit of result oriented argument. Just bid 6♦ at this point.

 

I would prefer this auction:

2♠ - p - p dbl

p - 3♦ - p - 3♠

p - 3NT - p - 4♣ (now a club cue with diamonds as trumps)

p - 4♥ - p - 5♦

p - 6♦

[PhilKing]

East's 4♠ was probably a misclick.

 

West got confused and lost their mind.

 

As to the theory, after a fourth seat double, I play 2NT as natural, showing nominally 8-11 points. The reason is that our most common hand-type on this particular auction is a moderate hand with something in their suit (since there was no raise). So it would go:

 

P X

2NT 3♣

3♦ 4♦

4♥ 5♣(East could Blackwood, but it's a bad habit with two losers in spades - pards stopper is sometimes JTxx)

5♠ 6♦

 

This should get you a good result. East can't underwrite seven, since West could be 4252, so there is no parking space for the heart loser.

[helene_t]

4♠ is a very good bid: it means "we can probably make 7♦ if opps think I have a void in spades".

[PhilG007]

The villain in this deal was most definitely East. If you make a bid that partner doesn't understand the

meaning of,it's YOUR FAULT. In a strange or casual partnership,I always try to play as simple a system as

possible. This is especially important if the partner is a beginner/novice.