Free Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Consider the following bidding (playing ACOL): 1♣ - 1♠ - Dbl - 1NTDbl - 2♠ - pass - passDbl? Do you consider this Double penalty or takeout? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Takeout. Pd was allowed to pass before because of the 2S bid. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 My rule is that when partner and I haven't agreed on a strain that doubles of opponent's bids below game are for takeout. On this particular hand, would a hand with 4 spades want to double with his trumps in front of declarer's 6 spades? I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Might one respond to a question with a question? ( "NO!" ) How much of the meaning of the second double would be influenced by whether or not the opps are playing pre-emptive jump-overcalls? If they are, then something doesn't quite add up. Given the bidding so far, is it possible for opener to have a relatively strong 17-18 balanced or semibalanced hand that is too good to pass 2S, and can tolerate it if P now bids a 5-card suit or has spades and can convert. If not, would the doubler have hit 1NT with good spades and an almost solid club suit (5 or 6) and entries, relying on the neg Xer to cover the red suits? Curious to hear opinions, because I think this helps determine the meaning of the second double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Consider the following bidding (playing ACOL): 1♣ - 1♠ - Dbl - 1NTDbl - 2♠ - pass - passDbl? Do you consider this Double penalty or takeout? Should be penalty Quick question for anyone suggesting that Double is for takeout: What would 2NT show in this auction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Perhaps also important is the meaning of the first double. If you play the first one as support (as I do) then it makes sense to play the second double as take-out (as I would). If you pllay the first double as strong without support (as you might playing a weak notrump in ACOL) then you might want to play this as penalty (QJ108 Kx AQx KQ10x would certainly do, even in front of the spade bidder) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 todd's argument is good, but i have to admit my first instinct is this is a penalty double... partner showed hearts and (maybe) diamond tolerance, he knows i bid clubs... i'd pass or correct to clubs, thinking the x is penalty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbreath Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 I think double is 'optional' .. ie suggesting we defend but leaving the final decision to p. His bidding so far suggests a min neg double (8+hcp) with red cards. Surely the X of 1nt suggests no great red-suit fit but enough HCP to expect to beat 1nt.. our fit hasnt improved since then so primary interest must be penalty.Rgds, Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Agree with Richard - penalties. X of 1NT was penalties. Once a penalty X has been made further doubles are also penalties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowology Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 I think double is 'optional' .. ie suggesting we defend but leaving the final decision to p. His bidding so far suggests a min neg double (8+hcp) with red cards. Surely the X of 1nt suggests no great red-suit fit but enough HCP to expect to beat 1nt.. our fit hasnt improved since then so primary interest must be penalty.Rgds, Dog I tend to agree with this. Double for me is penalty oriented but pass is not mandatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 I think double is 'optional' .. ie suggesting we defend but leaving the final decision to p. His bidding so far suggests a min neg double (8+hcp) with red cards. Surely the X of 1nt suggests no great red-suit fit but enough HCP to expect to beat 1nt.. our fit hasnt improved since then so primary interest must be penalty.Rgds, Dog Also agree with Dog and others. This is strongly penalty oriented ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badderzboy Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Acol Bidding was 1♣ - 1♠ - Dbl - 1NTDbl - 2♠ - pass - passDbl? As a BILlie I would look at the situation this way What has opener got and what hasn't he got :) ? If he has a balanced hand then he is 15+ and is 4-x-x-4 shape as he didn't open 1NT and did not support ♥s or ♦'s after the sputnik double and hasn't made a game NT try with a cue-bid etc. If he is unbalanced then he must be 5-x-x-4 shape or more shapely with a nice hand to double NT and then ♠'s. For the double over 1NT I would strongly suspect 17+ points and so I would take the last double as a penalty. The overcaller may have only 5♠'s and his partner 0-2 (he did'nt pre-emptively raise the suit over the double as what would you have done with this hand? [hv=s=skqjxxhxxdkxcxxx]133|100|[/hv] over 1NTx? Feel free to point out the flaws in my thinking :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 The overcaller may have only 5♠'s and his partner 0-2 (he did'nt pre-emptively raise the suit over the double as what would you have done with this hand? Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown ♠ KQJxx ♥ xx ♦ Kx ♣ xxx over 1NTx? Not for me, the overcaller must have 6♠ to rebid the suit ! Over 1NTx, I would pass as I've already shown what I have and it was up to partner to bid 1NT with something consistent ! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 In my opinion the final double is cooperative and more often than not it will show a balanced 18-19 hand.(However, I am not knowledgeable in Acol, so this might be different) Assuming this is true , responder should leave the double in unless his hand is quite distributional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 If you play the first one as support (as I do) then it makes sense to play the second double as take-out (as I would). Responder did not show a suit, but he doubled (negative I suppose). Do you use support doubles opposite pard's negative double ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 It doesn't really matter what it is. Opener has extras and wants to compete. Responder is probably going to pass regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Penaly, even the double before (over 1NT) seems to be penalty so this one is definelty penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 What about this: the second double was psyche-exposing (that is, it shows that there are some 50 HCPs in this board). They could easily have 6-3 spade fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 I think double here should be strong balanced. Responder can do whatever he likes opposite a (presumed) 18-19 balanced hand. Playing horrible disgusting weak no trump I suppose this could have a good 16-17 count as well, which is another reason why I don't play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Penalty. Enough T/O for me, hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 For me, it is penalty, because the double of 1NT was penalty, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 For me, it is penalty, because the double of 1NT was penalty, too. The double of 1N is discussing point. I am not sure it is, or should be, penalty. Opener could have some 3145 intermediate hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 There is no reason why the 2nd double should not be penalty. How on earth do you whack them off? Very likely that opener has 4 good spades and they are in a misfit. AQJx, Kx, Axx, KQxx would certainly qualify. I am aware about the general rule that some pairs play "all doubles below 2S as TO", but this is just common sense. And Ron's point is valid, once we make a penalty x, all subsequent dbls are penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 If you play the first one as support (as I do) then it makes sense to play the second double as take-out (as I would). Responder did not show a suit, but he doubled (negative I suppose). Do you use support doubles opposite pard's negative double ? Yes I do play support doubles over negative doubles. Partner's negative double shows 4+ hearts, so why shouldn't I want to show 3-card support. A more relevant question is perhaps whether one wouldn't need this double to be penalty. I don't play it that way (for example, 1C-1H-(1NT)-Dbl would be support). I agree that if the first double is panalty, then the first double should also be penalty. I play all doubles below game as take-out, unless in some obvious situations (e.g. partner has preempted, they are running or they make a 2-suited overcall). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrows Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Takeout, takeout, why don't just "out"? :) 1st: "takeout"2nd: "this hand belongs to us"3rd: "You are out of your mind" IMHO:1. Double usually means hard to find a natural alternative.2. Double also means you are happy if partner decide to leave it in. The more you double and the higher the level is, the more your parnter should think of passing the double.3 The following double is penalty in principle.(1) If partner has preempted.(2) We have already converted a takeout double into penalty.(3) The double of a suit in which, one of us showed 5+ cards.(4) We have already made a penalty double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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