Intrigued by the Bidding - again

[hallway]

With the Natuaralists versus the Scientists Rematch in the offing it might be interesting to compare the two approaches to bidding the following:

 

In real life it was the scientific approach that was used - needless to say I had absolutley no visions of any hand shapes :)

 

The opposition was speechless ::)

 

Non Vul

 

Dealer S - KQ9xxx, H - Q, D - AKx, C - Axx

 

Partner S - ATxxx, H - AJT9x, D - xx, C - x

 

I have the actual bidding written down - with a translation :- which I will be happy to share with you later.

 

Meanwhile - how would you bid it ?

 

keep smiling

Maureen

[the hog]

Dealer S - KQ9xxx, H - Q, D - AKx, C - Axx

 

Partner S - ATxxx, H - AJT9x, D - xx, C - x

 

1C 1D* 1D is a GF relay - now opener shows her hand

1S 1NT* shows S

2H 2S* s/suited

3C 3D* s/t or void H

3H 3S* precisely 6133shape. 3S asks for AK points

4D 4H* 8 control points (A=2, K=1)

4S 7S something in all suits, (excluding the short suit)

 

The asterisked bids are relays. 7S is easy now as it as a make even if opener has AK of C and A of D. Note that the HQJT are all reundant cards.

[Codo]

Hi Maureen,

 

Dealer S - KQ9xxx, H - Q, D - AKx, C - Axx

 

Partner S - ATxxx, H - AJT9x, D - xx, C - x

 

1 Spade 12+ HCP with 5+ spades

2 Heart GF with 5 + Hearts

2 Spade I have no good rebid, so

wait and see. Pd is not allowed

to pass

4 Club splinter, accepting spades

without spade support, I can

bid a new minor, or repeat

Hearts

4 Diamond Cuebid SI

4 Heart Cuebid

 

4 NT RCKB

5 Spade 2 aces+ enough trumps

to find the trump queen

 

7 Spade

 

6 Spade tricks, 1 Heart, 2 Diamonds, 1 Clubs two club ruffs 1 Diamond ruff. (Pd had shown at least 10 cards in the majors, so he must be ablet to ruff all minor suit loosers.

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[pbleighton]

Maureen - an very non-expert stab:

1S

2NT Jacoby 2NT, GF, 4+ spades

3H heart s/t or void

Responder huddles - on the one hand, short in a suit where I have cards, on the other, 10+ trumps and a short suit vs a different short suit. Feeling lucky, so:

4C - suppress heart ace, shows club control

Dealer now happy

4NT RKC - 2 aces+ enough trumps to find the trump queen (useful lie courtesy of Roland)

7S feeling lucky

[luis]

Dealer S - KQ9xxx, H - Q, D - AKx, C - Axx

Partner S - ATxxx, H - AJT9x, D - xx, C - x

 

Auction (a): German-Moscito

 

D P

1c(1) 1h(2)

1s(3) 1n(4)

2c(3) 2s(5)

2n(3) 3c(6)

3d(3) 3s(7)

4c(8) 4s(9)

4n(10) 5n(11)

7s

 

(1) 15+ any

(2) 4+spades 9+ positive

(3) relay

(4) Spades and hearts

(5) Spades = Hearts

(6) Short clubs

(7) 5-5-2-1 exactly

(8) Controls?

(9) 4

(10) Where? (denial cuebids)

(11) A or K of sp, A or K of hearts, nothing in d or c denies sQ

 

Very clear-cut and straightforward auction :-) In this moscito version the strong hand asks and responder answers. The distribution is known at the 3s level and then 4c asks for controls (3nt always to play), then denial cuebids are used to find if the 4 controls are the sA and hA or the sA, hK and cK (yuck)

 

Auction b: The chamaleon

 

1c(1) 1s(2)

1n(3) 2h(4)

2s(3) 3d(5)

3h(3) 3s(6)

4c(7) 4s(8)

4n(9) 5n(10)

7s

 

(1) 15+ any

(2) Spades 9+ positive

(3) relay

(4) Spades and hearts

(5) Spades = Hearts

(6) Short clubs

(7) Controls?

(8) 4

(9) Where?

(10) hA, sA, no sQ

 

Note that in less bids the distribution is known at the same level than

in German Moscito, funny! Then exactly as in the prev version, ask for controls and denial cuebids.

[inquiry]

With the Natuaralists versus the Scientists Rematch in the offing it might be interesting to compare the two approaches to bidding the following:

 

In real life it was the scientific approach that was used - needless to say I had absolutley no visions of any hand shapes :D

 

The opposition was speechless ::)

 

Non Vul

 

Dealer S - KQ9xxx, H - Q, D - AKx, C - Axx

 

Partner S - ATxxx, H - AJT9x, D - xx, C - x

 

I have the actual bidding written down - with a translation :- which I will be happy to share with you later.

 

Meanwhile - how would you bid it ?

 

keep smiling

Maureen

 

Hi Maureen,

 

This is a hand taylor made for scientific bidding. The degree of fit, the location of shortness, the possession of honors. In ultimate club, the auction would go like this....

 

1C 1H (four+ controls A=2, K=1)

1S 2H (1S = relay, 2H = long S, or long C, or 5-4 minors, 4 control min)

2S 3N (2S = long spades, 3N = 5-5 in major)

7S

 

Opener could relay more to find out responders minor suit distribution. But he already knows opener has 5-card support and both missing aces... at a minimum Axxxx Axxxx and three minor suit cards.

 

*************

 

But even though this hand was taylor-made for scientific bidding, doesn't mean it cann't be reached by naturalist. How might standard bidders bid this? It depends upon your agreement. If you use "fit-jumps", it could go like this...

 

1S - 3H (heart suit, and spade fit)

4N - 5S (5S = 2 key cards + trump queen)

7S - Pass

 

Since responder showed the spade Queen, he must have 5 spades to go along with his 5 hearts for the fit jump. So you know just as much as the ultimate bidders, and quicker.

 

What if not playing fit jumps? Now the question becomes how do you respond with the hand. If playing 2-over-1, the hand isn't good enough for 2H's (which is why I like fit jumps), too much offense with controls in three suits for a 4S bid, and not strong enough IMHO for a jacoby 2NT. So I guess you have to use a splinter of 4C (assuming you play that instead of fit jumps).

 

1S - 4C 4C = splinter

4S - 5S 4S = kantor RKC (www.kantarbridge.com)

6D - 6H 6D = SSA, 6H = third round control

7S - Pass

 

See http://www.kantarbridge.com/rkb_vii.htm for details about SSA (which is specific suit ask, this case for Diamonds).

 

Finally, if you have no splinter or no fit jump, and are just playing SAYC type bidding....

 

1S - 2H

3S - 4S

5C - 5S

7S

 

Here, 2H promise five card suit, 5S over 5NT promises the "queen", but since opener has the queen, he knows his partner has five trumps to show it. So he knows his partner is the same 5-5 or better in the majors with both major aces.

 

Ben

[luis]

After examining Ben's auctions I think that in order to reach 7s responder must be able to show club shortness and a heart suit, that's why the 1s-2h can succeed. You can tell me you will bid 7s anyway and I believe you, I just don't believe that that's the only posible path of action for the hand, it can surely end up in 6s in many partnerships.

BenL With my best respect I found your auctions a little "forced" pin-pam-pum-7s .... very unlikely to happen at the table unless opener is "obfuscated"....

I don't think you can bid 7s after a 1s-2NT or 1s-4c....

If you bid 1s-3h (JumpFit) then maybe after 1s-3h;3s-4c; showing both the club control and the heart suit....

Relay systems have superior tools to find grand slams, that's a known fact but it doesn't mean that they are better than standard/natural methods. I think we can agree that finding 7 on this hand playing standard depends on non-exact factors. You may play 7 you may not but you are not "forced" to bid 7. A relay system forces you to 7 unless you don't want to bid what you can make.

 

Full-duplex systems like SAYC have the probem of introducing a lot of "noise" in the auction due to the different actions that both declarer and responder can take without being wrong example: Do I show the heart suit or a club splinter? Do I bid a Jac2NT or not, etc.... Half-duplex systems (relay) systems have very little noise and that's why they are in my opnion superior in uncontested auctions and inferior in contested auctions to natural.

 

Just some comments...

[lifemonster]

I am on the natural side. Regarding the 2/1 auction:

 

1S 2H

2S 4C

4NT 5S(2 with, for the 5th trump)

6D(do you have 3rd rd control?)

 

Slightly we have a problem here. What if responder does not have the 3rd rd control in diamonds but with K of hearts? Therefore, seems 6H can be defined as "without diamond Q but with heart K"?

 

However, in reality, if responder doesn't have the Q of diamonds, with only stiff club and still make a 2/1 response, he rates to have some points, ie, the K of hearts.

[pbleighton]

Ben writes"

 

S - ATxxx, H - AJT9x, D - xx, C - x

 

is "not strong enough IMHO for a jacoby 2NT"

 

Why not? My understanding of the requirements is that the responder's hand be:

1) Strong enough to force to game

2) Four plus trumps

3) No interest in the other major

 

One less trump and I would investigate hearts, but not with 5 trumps to the A10.

 

Do you not think this is a GF hand, or do you reserve J2NT for stronger-than-minimum GF hands?

 

I ask as someone who has actually played a J2NT sequence a grand total of 5 times, and reached small slam once (successfully!), so I am quite interested in your reply.

[lifemonster]

I don't think that either Jacoby Forcing raise or a direct 4C splinter will do the job(it doesn't change the result here but could have affected had the cards been different).

 

Again, let's return to the natural side:

1S 2H

2S 4C

4NT 5S

??

From opener's point of view, even responder doesn't have the Q of diamonds, nor the K of hearts, as long as hearts break 4-3, 7 is on.

 

Therefore, 2H serves better purpose than JFR and direct splinter, because it shows the source of tricks.

JFR and direct splinter can't give opener such picture.

 

It reminds me another grand posted days ago.

 

S KJ742(North)

H T

D A865432

C T

 

S AQ853(South)

H AJ43

D 7

C A65

South the opener. Again, it's better for North to bid 2D, showing source of tricks first.

 

Moral of the story? With a long side suit, some stiff and lengthy trump support, it's better to show the long suit first instead of bidding JFR or splinter first time. The latter cases should be reserved for "general forcing hands".

[inquiry]

After examining Ben's auctions I think that in order to reach 7s responder must be able to show club shortness and a heart suit, that's why the 1s-2h can succeed. You can tell me you will bid 7s anyway and I believe you, I just don't believe that that's the only posible path of action for the hand, it can surely end up in 6s in many partnerships.

BenL With my best respect I found your auctions a little "forced" pin-pam-pum-7s .... very unlikely to happen at the table unless opener is "obfuscated"....

I don't think you can bid 7s after a 1s-2NT ...1S-4C

 

Well, Luis, I never once suggested 2NT was the right bid for the responder's hand. Nor did any of my auctions include a 2NT response. If someone bid 2NT and wound their way to 7S's good for them.

 

As for the 1S-4C response, I have to admit this would not be available for me, as I use 1S-4C as fit jump, not splinter. However, after a splinter, I think the grand is 100% reachable if you play kantar blackwood, by the simple auction I gave. 5S shows the trump queen clearly shows 5 card or longer spade support. Opener is looking at three little diamonds, all he needs is the heart King or diamond Queen or doubleton diamond. So there are two approaches to this. The thought is that with Heart AK partner might bid on after grand slam try asking in diamonds. As an alternative... opener can bid 5NT (specific king ask), and responder can bid 6C (in the splinter suit) to give opener a chance to make SSA in diamond or hearts. I just took the shorter route to simplify the description.

 

"If you bid 1s-3h (JumpFit) then maybe after 1s-3h;3s-4c; showing both the club control and the heart suit....

 

I play the fit jump to the three level as limited to three level only. So opener would never rebid "only" 3S with his hand. The reason being if I had a hand worth the four level, I could bid 2 over 1. So 1S-3H, opener will not rebid 3S. If opener is not going to blast with 4NT right away, he could bid a serious 3NT, to see if partner can cue-bid either minor suit control. Ok, so he hears a 4Club bid over this, and off to blackwood he goes again. Same result.

 

Of course, if partner bids only 3S, I am bidding 4S with this two suiter...

 

"Relay systems have superior tools to find grand slams, that's a known fact but it doesn't mean that they are better than standard/natural methods. I think we can agree that finding 7 on this hand playing standard depends on non-exact factors.

 

Well, Relay systems are designed to bid such hands, on this I think we can agree. But I don't know if agree with the premise that finding 7 on this hand depends upon non-exact factors. The way I bid this hand I find seven for exactly the way relayers find seven. I discover responder is at least 5-5 in the majors with both major aces (through rkc and fit jump). The hands could be changed a little... remove the spade queen from opener so he can not count the fifth spade when responder responds to the RKCB. Now, only the small slam will be bid, while the relayers will get to grand anyway. But that wasn't the problem posed.

 

Full-duplex systems like SAYC have the probem of introducing a lot of "noise" in the auction due to the different actions that both declarer and responder can take without being wrong example: Do I show the heart suit or a club splinter? Do I bid a Jac2NT or not, etc.... Half-duplex systems (relay) systems have very little noise and that's why they are in my opnion superior in uncontested auctions and inferior in contested auctions to natural.

 

Well, I think any intellegent system can bid this particular hand, and I disagree with your premise that this hand is a problem for natural bidders. Any good natural pair or good scientific partnership will reach this slam without too much difficulty. Swap the SPADE QUEEN for the spade 2, and it becomes harder, because opener will not know about the fifth spade, but not impossible. For the 6D SSA bid still gets you to seven in the standard auctions.

 

And compare the simple...

1S - 3H

4N - 5S

7S (five bids) to your auction....

 

D P

1c(1) 1h(2)

1s(3) 1n(4)

2c(3) 2s(5)

2n(3) 3c(6)

3d(3) 3s(7)

4c(8) 4s(9)

4n(10) 5n(11)

7s (15 bids)....

 

Which might take more out of you in a long match?? This kind of bidding, as accurate as it is can lead to fatigue, and one miscount of steps can lead to a disaster. I know, I have been there, done that. :D

 

Ben

[inquiry]

Ben writes"

 

S - ATxxx, H - AJT9x, D - xx, C - x

 

is "not strong enough IMHO for a jacoby 2NT"

 

Why not?

 

I do not bid jacoby 2NT with a second good suit unless I have very strong slam ambitions. I would much prefer bidding 2H here than 2NT. I also do not use "splinter" with a side 5 card suit, so I would much prefer bidding 2H to 4C with hand.

 

If you took away my favorite bid (3H-fit jump) I would bid 2H's, then if partner bid 2S leap to 4C's I guess, but this is a huge overbid in my opinion. But since I play 1S-2h-2s-4S as a picture bid denying a minor control that is out.

 

Also, I like my Jacoby 2NT to include an option for me to take control of the hand. This is not a hand where I will know what to do over partners response (EVEN IF HE SHOWS A SHORT HEART). I think on this hand, you should be describing your holding, not seeking information about your partners hand. Long hearts, fit for spades, just about game values (I will correct 3S to 4S after my fit jump if partner tries to signoff... he will get the picture... 5 trumps, 5 hearts for this auction.. to be LAWFUL despite signoff and insufficient values for 2H... he will know I have a hand too good for 4S, not good enough for 2H).

 

You can use Jacoby on hands with a good suit of your own, but only where you have slam ambitions. This is not the hand for it. How do you play 1H-3NT? As a heart fit or not?

 

Ben

[luis]

And compare the simple...

1S - 3H

4N - 5S

7S (five bids) to your auction....

 

D P

1c(1) 1h(2)

1s(3) 1n(4)

2c(3) 2s(5)

2n(3) 3c(6)

3d(3) 3s(7)

4c(8) 4s(9)

4n(10) 5n(11)

7s (15 bids)....

 

Which might take more out of you in a long match?? This kind of bidding, as accurate as it is can lead to fatigue, and one miscount of steps can lead to a disaster. I know, I have been there, done that. :D

 

Ben

 

Fatigue? Imagine the degree of stress while LHO thinks about the opening lead after your "simple" auction are you sure you can win 7s? Probably... but are you SURE? Will you be able to ruff the hearts for a discard? How many discards do you need? Can pd have only 4 trumps and "invented" a 3h bid only to find you playing 7s with QJxx of trumps missing?

 

My "long" auction is automatic after you study the system and declarer can relax and claim if the opening lead is not ruffed so you can let LHO fatigue finding a lead agains a cold 7, relax, you know all your pd's cards.... Write +2210 in the card and talk with RHO about what your pd has while LHO struggles at the other side of the screen to find a lead :-)

 

Of course if pd missbids a relay auction can lead to a disaster (my last disaster lead to 7n making, I was lucky) but an accident can't be intentional! it's not something that pd can do because he wanted to do it on purpose!

 

As I said I believe you would play 7s I just don't believe all natural/standard bidders will find this grand slam automatically. And yes I think many will start with 1s-2NT in fact I play 2NT as any 9+ hand with 4+ trumps with my pd I'll ask him to bid this hand with me and we may bid 7 or not but I'm not sure....

[inquiry]

Fatigue? Imagine the degree of stress while LHO thinks about the opening lead after your "simple" auction are you sure you can win 7s? Probably... but are you SURE? Will you be able to ruff the hearts for a discard? How many discards do you need? Can pd have only 4 trumps and "invented" a 3h bid only to find you playing 7s with QJxx of trumps missing?

 

Yes Luis, I am as certain I am going to make 7S after any of my auctions as you are after your 15 bids. You discovered your partner held both major aces, no spade queen, and 10 or 12 cards in the majors.

 

What did my simple auction show? Partner had 5+H's and then 5+S (he showed the spade Queen when I know he doesn't have it...needs five for that). So I discovered partner has 10-13 cards in the major, and both major aces, and no spade queen. I can be as smug as you as I await the opening lead. Somehow, you seem to have a mental block that on this particular hand, natural can lead to the same information that you get with your 15 bids.

 

And opener knows we are not missing QJxx of spades...for one thing he looking at the Queen, and for another, he knows the opponents have 2Spades at most.

 

As I said I believe you would play 7s I just don't believe all natural/standard bidders will find this grand slam automatically. And yes I think many will start with 1s-2NT in fact I play 2NT as any 9+ hand with 4+ trumps with my pd I'll ask him to bid this hand with me and we may bid 7 or not but I'm not sure....

 

Well, you can be sure all natural bidders will not reach grand. I assume all mosquito or ultimate or precision players would not either. But anyone who has worked a bit on their system will. Arguing that "all natural bidders" will not reach this grand slam is sort of not useful, don't you think? I mean, all is a very large group of players. But seriously, this really isn't that hard of a grand slam to bid, regardless of the system you use.

 

Ben

[pbleighton]

Ben writes

"You can use Jacoby on hands with a good suit of your own, but only where you have slam ambitions. This is not the hand for it. How do you play 1H-3NT? As a heart fit or not?"

 

Thanks for your response, but I don't fully understand your response.

1) With the hand shown, why bother with hearts with the spade support you have? If you show hearts with 1S-2H, what is the likely auction which will tell you that partner has 5 hearts and 5 (not 6) spades? Apart from the low probability of the hand, how do you find out that hearts is a better fit?

2) I don't understand the relevance of your above quote. If my partner bid 3NT over 1H, I would assume 16-18 balanced, 2 hearts, and 3 spades. What am I missing?

 

I am intrigued by "fit-jumps". Do they replace WJS and/or Bergen raises? Do they show 4+ trump support and are GF? What length/strength suit do they show? How often do they occur?

[luis]

Ben: How did you know I'm mentally blocked? I'm struggling to hide my condition without any sucess.... :-)

 

I'm not saying all natural bidders won't reach 7 I just said that some of them may not reach 7 because they methods may not be well suited for this particular hand or having more than one option they may choose the one that won't lead them to 7. I agree with you this is not a difficult 7 and many many natural bidders will bid it, the interesting thing is that they are not "forced" to bid 7, they have alternative routes to miss the 7.

 

1s 2NT(1)

3d(2) 3h(3)

3s(4) 4c(5)

4n(6) 5s(7)

?

 

(1) 9+ 4+ spades any

(2) Not minimum unbalanced

(3) heart control, slam-interest

(4) What else

(5) Club control

(6) RKCB

(7) 2+Q then 5+trumps because I can see the Q

 

And now what? 6 or 7? and why? What do you need for 7? You don't know. This is just one of the auctions that can fail and it's not unreasonable.

 

On the other hand all relay bidders will bid 7 because you have no other choice. I disagree when you say some Moscito players won't bid 7 that's impossible unless you have an accident. Precision does have a problem too, after 1c-1s do you ask for controls with 1nt or do you ask about spade support with 2s?

The meaning of new suits is different in super-precision after 1c-1s;1n or 1c-1s;2s... Why do you have to take a decision now without knowing what pd has in detail?

Sometimes it is good NOT to have options in the bidding, in the presented hand you may start with a J2NT, a Jump Fit a 2/1 2h or a splinter, for some pairs all the options may be reasonable to bid the hand, you have the chance to fail.

 

My point was to comment on the advantages and disadvantages between half-duplex and full-duplex systems and found this hand interesting even if I do agree you can easily reach 7 playing natural. Just that.

[luis]

Pb: About Jump fits: You have to agree with your pd the meaning of a Jump-Fit and the strength and trump length.

 

With one pd I played

1M - 3c/3d BErgen and then

1M - 3om = Splinter in some suit

1M -4m = Jump-Fit

 

JumpFits showing 5 trumps, 5+ cards in the suit bid and no side Aces or Kings.

 

After playing hundreads of hands I never (never!) used a jump-fit so my conclusion is that this treatment may be a waste of space. Now that I see this hand I realize it would start 1s-4h and then I just don't know... so it's not only a waste of space but a source of trouble.

 

Other players play

1M - 3m as Jump-Fits with

5+ trump support and 5+trumps, others play that a jump-fit shows 4+ trumps not 5.

You have to drop Bergen raises in order to play this maybe you must now use 2NT for all the INV+ hands with 4+ trumps.

If the Jump-fit shows 5+ trumps it wont' happen :-) believe me, if it shows 4+ trumps and a side suit then it can be good because you can't show a real suit after 1M-2NT and that maybe the very crucial piece of information you need to find the right contract. Of course you can start using a normal 2/1 response but many agree that support after 2/1 shows exactly 3 cards since you should bid J2NT with 4+ trumps.... Life is not easy....

 

My conclusion is that the best flavour for jump-fits is to play 3x as Jump-Fit with 4+ trumps and 5+cards in the suit. You can choose if you like this approach or not.

 

It's a matter of agreement.

[inquiry]

Thanks for your response, but I don't fully understand your response.

1) With the hand shown, why bother with hearts with the spade support you have? If you show hearts with 1S-2H, what is the likely auction which will tell you that partner has 5 hearts and 5 (not 6) spades? Apart from the low probability of the hand, how do you find out that hearts is a better fit?

2) I don't understand the relevance of your above quote. If my partner bid 3NT over 1H, I would assume 16-18 balanced, 2 hearts, and 3 spades. What am I missing?

 

I am intrigued by "fit-jumps". Do they replace WJS and/or Bergen raises? Do they show 4+ trump support and are GF? What length/strength suit do they show? How often do they occur?

 

Hi Pb,

 

First, let me revisit Jacoby 2NT for just a minute. In Standard American (SAYC and the like), 2NT response shows 13+ HCP. Many have lowered the requirement to 9 points or so (see Luis's response) so that it includes "limit raise or better". This seems very popular amoung european players. We will return to this in a minute.

 

Why make a fit jump if "we know" we are going to play in spades? The answer to this has to deal with the concept of "potential competitive auction." You have a known 10 card minimum fit in spades. Are you sure your LHO is going to pass quietly? Might he not bid, say 4NT eventually over 4S (if that is where you end up?). Might you not want your partner to be able to apply the law correctly?

 

What your partner needs to know is should he defend or bid 5S or heck, let them play 5C/5D. The way you help him make an eductated guess is to use Fit Jumps correctly. Here, you partner, knowing you have spades and hearts, will be in a much better position. Say he has a stiff heart, he might choose to defend. Say he has four hearts, he will never defend 5C (clearly a double-double fit hand). I can show a very similar hand with 2/1 GF, but now I set up a forcing pass situation, and I have plenty of time to show partner about my support.

 

Now, most people who play FIT JUMPS, only play them in competition. This is what I use to do as well. Saving jump shifts for either weak hands or strong hands depending upon partner's preference. But strong hands are really not a big problem playing 2/1 or nmf, and weak hands, well, sometimes you preempt partner and you can alway try to get your suit it with 1NT forcing after all.

 

Now, if you choose to play fit jumps, (single jumps), that leaves you with double jumps as either splinters, or better fit jumps. It is up to you. That is....

 

1H - 3C

3H - 4H <<--- better fit jump, pass with min fit jump...

 

or you can play 3C as limited to 3 level fit jump and 4C as a hand worth game fit jump. I have played both options, but it does seem a little redundant to use both.

 

Now 2/1 game force, fit jump long suit less than game force or very bare game force, what does that leave 2NT as since no bergen?

 

Well, I very much like the ability to bid

1H-3H or 1S-3S on 4 card support and dirt. So I follow my european friends and use 1M-2NT to show limit raise OR BETTER. Over this, you can add some of Marty Bergen's ideas for New Jacoby, but you must play either 1M-2NT-3M or 1M-2NT-3C as an escape bid to get out if responder has a limit raise.

 

As for Luis's never, ever using a fit jump, well maybe he is unlucky, they most certainly do turn up. As a matter of fact, if you lower your requirement for 4 card major support, they turn up a lot, but I like to keep the fourth trump, because I am forcing the bidding to the three level (law of total tricks... 9 trumps, 9 tricks).

 

How do you find out which suit is better? If it goes 1S-3H-4H-? what do you bid with your hand? I think with the fifth spade, you should correct back to spades... besides, you want the lead coming up to your partners hand, not yours.

 

Now to the reference about 1M-3NT....

 

Playing 2/1, your forcing 1NT can include some pretty good hands without a five card suit. Some people use 1M-3NT to separate out some of the potential hands from 1M-2NT.

 

I have seen 1M-3NT played as 16-17 balanced, 4 card support, and as 13-15 with 3/4 card support, balance. Someone will probably correct me, but I have seen this referred to as something like "sorter". When I use to play Romex, we used 1M-3NT to show 4-4.5 cover cards and 12-13 hcp and a fit. This is why I asked.

 

Ben

[hallway]

The actual bidding proceeded as follows:

 

1C (16+ Prec) 1S (8+ 5xSpades)

2S (Trump ask) 3C (5 to 1 Top Honour)

3D (D ask) 3S (Dblton or Q)

4C (Club Ask) 4S (Singleton or K)

5C (which one) 5D (Singleton)

5H (Heart ask) 6D (ace or void)

7S

 

The Opps are still speechless :B)

 

though it does loose some of it's power to impress when the translations are written alongside. :)

Wonder what would have happened with a 4th seat 3D(6card) interpose ........ :- Would the opener have passed and the responder reacted to the interpose as a D ask and given the same answer ?

When ftf and there are no convention cards supplied is one permitted to ask the meaning of each of the 12 bids as they are made ?

[the hog]

When ftf and there are no convention cards supplied is one permitted to ask the meaning of each of the 12 bids as they are made.

 

Yes Maureen, you are entitled to ask the meaning of each bid. However unless you intend to enter the auction would be far better of asking for an explanation at the conclusion of the auction.

A number of reasons for this - you might alert the opps that a wheel has fallen off; you risk unauthorised information to your partner if you draw attention to one particular suit; you save a lot of time.

 

Incidentally, the opps should of course supply a convention card.

 

Cheers

Ron

[inquiry]

Hi Maureen,

 

Yes of course, as already pointed out, you have everyright to know what each bid means. Your opponents were using superprecison with the "greek asking bids". These have fallen somewhat out of favor among precision players, I am not exactly sure why, as they are still useful. Here tney used the GAMMA trump support asking bid (2S), epsilon (3D, 4C, 5H) and repeat epsilon asking bid (5C).

 

I would have made only a change in their auction. I would have started with a Beta control asking bid (1NT), to which partner would have responded 2H (4 controls). Now 2S is still the gamma ask and the new suits are still epsilon, but you go in knowing partner has two aces or an ace and two kings (from the 2H response and your own hand).

 

If one adopts superprecision asking bids, you have to know when not to use them. I most often bid 1C-1S-2NT or 1C-1S-3S to revert to natural bidding when my hand was not suited for a series of tons of bids.

 

The advantage of 1C-1S-1NT sequence instead of immediately bidding 2S is that if partner has some yucky positive response like S-Jxxxx H-KJxx DQJx C-KQx you get to end the auction very quickly....

 

1C-1S

1N-2C (2C = 0 to 2 controls, not enough for slam)

4S

 

 

Ben