Similar/Same Treatment?

[masse24]

Seems to be fairly standard that:

 

a) (4♠) - X is Takeout

b) (4♠) - 4NT is Two-Suited (not necessarily minors)

 

...but what about:

 

c) (2♠) - P - (4♠) - X

d) (2♠) - P - (4♠) - 4NT

 

That being decided, what is your call with the following after (2♠) - P - (4♠) - ?

 

♠AJ ♥AT762 ♦4 ♣KQJ62

[Free]

Both Dbl and 4NT should be treated the same in either auction imo

[JonnyQuest]

Agree with Free. The auction (2♠) - P - (4♠) is similar to a direct (4♠) preempt.

 

Double should be treated the same in both auctions.

4NT should be treated the same in both auctions.

[Zelandakh]

Seems to be fairly standard that:

a) (4♠) - X is Takeout

b) (4♠) - 4NT is Two-Suited (not necessarily minors)

This depends on how old your partner is and from which part of the world they stem. For many, the older definitions of X showing values (optional), often a big balanced hand, and 4NT being the purer takeout are still in use. I even see it in the expert problem panel answers over here. In any case, it is sensible to use the same defence in both auctions regardless of where you draw the lines.

[barmar]

I think most of my convention cards say "Double is takeout through 4♥", implying that a double of 4♠ is more penalty-oriented.

 

Larry Cohen's recent series of Bulletin articles on doubles recommends takeout and negative doubles at all levels (although partner is allowed more latitude in leaving it in at higher levels).

[awm]

Double in the bid-and-raise auction is clearly takeout. While the person in 4th position will sometimes hold a good hand, he will virtually never hold a good hand with spade length.

 

Double over a direct 4S can be played the same way, but its still "standard" to play it as cards -- quite possibly doubler will hold something like 17 balanced without "takeout shape" and be stuck for a call. I don't think any good pairs play a real "penalty" double in either auction.

[jdeegan]

:P Screwed again! I learned that a double showed cards, and 4NT two places to play with some way to get there. Imo, this should still apply after 2♠ - Pass - 4♠. That said, I am still screwed in this auction. Just for fun, let's assume equal vulnerability. How about a cheerful 5♣? On this auction, partner figures to have some length in the suit. My other bid is pass where, at least, we have a fighting chance for a plus score even though this is exactly where the opponents say they want to play the hand. Any distinction between major and minor suits is long since by the boards. I don't want the cheese. I just want out of the trap.