Bid This One With Me

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=s109864hdak108caj95]133|100|Scoring: IMP

N E S W

1S 2H 4H P

4S P ?[/hv]

 

What if any call do you make now? What is your reasoning?

[arrows]

Seems I can score some ruffs in ♥, and everything well-controlled.

with a random partner, I would just bid 6♠

 

With a good parnter, I would raise 5♠. Showing I am concerned about

the trumps, since I had taken so much space to splinter, it's inconceivable

that I am missing controls in minors. then given I didn't launch RKCB, ♥

void by inference.

 

With good trumps (likely), I hope partner would raise 6♠, with solid trumps,

I hope partner would cue ♣ King and I would follow with 6♦, then

partner may be able to count 13 tricks.

[Chamaco]

Pass, I have bid my hand.

 

I did splinter, showing a good opening hand with controls and shortness in opps suit.

 

Despite this, pard signed off.

So he should have a pretty bad hand and you should respect his signoff, since I have nothing more than what I promised, except the fact that shortness in opps suit is a void instead of a singleton.

 

But the real problem is the choice of a splinter raise at the previous round of bidding.

 

If you evaluate this hand too strong for a signoff, then you have chosen the wrong bid by splintering, losing 2 bidding levels.

 

I mean, if you are going to ask for Keycards or start cuebidding now, at the 5+ level, you might as well asked for keycards right away without splintering (perhaps using EKB).

 

Splinter raises should be used for such hands where you want to describe your hand and where you will respct your pard's signoff; usually, when one splinters and reopens over pard's signoff, is a sign that the splinter was an unfortunate choice of raise.

[whereagles]

I don't agree, Mauro. Sorry :rolleyes:

 

While it is true that 4-level splinters should only be made with well defined hands (say 11-14 hcp or whatever you agree with pard) it is also true that in competition your priorities change.

 

The bid you must make is not the "book" one, but the one that is closer to what you have, and most of all, the one that will make pard's life easier. Even if this means twisting your values a bit.

 

In this particular case, suppose you decide this hand was too strong for a splinter, so you bid it via, say, 2NT showing a good raise.

 

1S 2H 2NT 5H

dbl pass ??

 

Ok, so this didn't happen, but could have happened. And if it did, are you going to pull out the double and find pard with

 

QJxxx

Ax

Jxx

Kxx

 

or pass, only to find out pard has instead

 

AKxxx

Jxx

Qxx

Kx

 

If you had splintered instead, pard would know to double on the first hand and bid 5S on the second. The difference is by splintering you showed a hand that is closer to what you have, rather than clouding the issue with the more obscure 2NT.

 

Ok, maybe my example is too extreme, but change the major suits (you have hearts, opps have spades) and it will perhaps be clearer. Still, the idea is simple: in competition you have to let go your "book" bids and bid the thing that is more likely to help your side taking difficult decisions. You create other problems, of course... but I much rather prefer to guess to go on or not after having splintered, than to let the double stand or not if opps bid to 5H.

[Chamaco]

 

I don't agree, Mauro. Sorry :(

 

While it is true that 4-level splinters should only be made with well defined hands (say 11-14 hcp or whatever you agree with pard) it is also true that in competition your priorities change.

 

 

Whereagles (BTW what's your real name ? :rolleyes: ) I understand your point :-)

 

However, if the splinter in competition is intended to inform my pard of my shortness before they jump raise over my 2NT, I think it is redundant:

- if my pard has cards to double, he will know anyway I am short in their suit (opps raised, he has cards in the suit), he will "read" my void.

- if they do not jump raise, 2NT is a much better choice than splinter.

 

However, I agree that bidding 2NT may not work well in some cases, but reopening after a splinter is not a solution either, and IMO is worse: then I just think that much better than splintering is blasting 6S with or without asking for keycards.

 

 

 

Still, the idea is simple: in competition you have to let go your "book" bids and bid the thing that is more likely to help your side taking difficult decisions. You create other problems, of course... but I much rather prefer to guess to go on or not after having splintered, than to let the double stand or not if opps bid to 5H.

 

Yes, so why go via a splinter raise if you are going to reopen ?

In my experience, players who reopen over pard's signoff after a splinter, have already decided to bid the slam whatever happens, so better off blasting into it.

 

As you said, just bid what you think you can make. :)

[whereagles]

Well.. actually we have a deeper problem here: responder wants to be in charge, but all the competitive gadgets of today put OPENER in charge :rolleyes: But I digress.

 

If responder already decided he will bid 5S over 5H, then by all means bid 2NT if you prefer. However, if responder splinters, then opener can take a better informed decision than if responder had bid 2NT. This is because a splinter is closer to what responder has than 2NT. Since opener's decision after a splinter is more precise, responder can evaluate better what opener has and decide whether or not to go to slam.

 

1S 2H 4H pass

4S pass ?? <-- opener rates to have heart wastage or a very minimum hand (possibly both!). Proceed at your own risk :(

 

1S 2H 2NT 4H

4S pass ?? <-- opener can have a lot of hands to bid 4S. He might have wastage and/or a min, but he may also have a slightly better hand that offers a good chance for slam. You probably can't afford to pass now, but going on can be risky. There seems to be much more of a guess here than if you had splintered. At least it seems so to me.

 

Decisions, decisions... :) By the way, my name is Nuno.

[Chamaco]

 

1S 2H 4H pass

4S pass ?? <-- opener rates to have heart wastage or a very minimum hand (possibly both!). Proceed at your own risk :rolleyes:

 

Ok, that's what I mean: *if you choose to splinter, you must accept pard's signoff*.

 

If, instead, you intend to "proceed at your own risk" even knowing of par's wastage, better off not splitering altogether but asking for keycards and blast into the high level contract.

 

As I said, when one splinters and then pulls after pard's signoff, 95% of the times he has already decided to bid the slam, so better do it immediately after checking the trump honors.

 

So all this boils down to deciding BEFORE splintering whether you would accept pard's signoff. In this case, all is fine, whereas in the opposite cases, IMO more often than not there is a better alternative.

 

1S 2H 2NT 4H

4S pass ?? <-- opener can have a lot of hands to bid 4S. He might have wastage and/or a min, but he may also have a slightly better hand that offers a good chance for slam.

 

Is this true ?

I would think that opener has 3 options based on the agreements on forcing pass:

1. pass: forcing, either a hand with *something wasted* or a slam invitational hand (pass then pull)

 

2. double: here opener has for sure heart wastage and/or a minimum

 

3. 4S: an offensive hand without slam interest, and probably not heart wastage

 

In either of the 3 situations, responder - if he evaluates the hand worth a slam try - will be able to make a forward move.

 

 

Decisions, decisions... :( By the way, my name is Nuno.

 

:)

[whereagles]

Well.. maybe you're right. I just feel more at ease with splintering. I'll have a problem if it goes

 

1S 2H 4H pass

4S pass ??

 

but I won't have problems if it goes

 

1S 2H 4H 5H

dbl pass ?? (I'd pass)

 

or

 

1S 2H 4H 5H

5S pass ?? (bid 6)

 

or

 

1S 2H 4H 5H

pass pass ?? (bid 5S after pard's forcing pass)

 

How likely is they'll bid 5H? I don't know... maybe it's too much to think the auction will come back in 5H and I should prepare for it.. lol ;)

[flytoox]

I think 5S is best. It must be asking for trump quality, as there are two side suits unbid.

[shanbari]

this is tough one, with opener S: A Q J x x, H: K Q x, 4s contract is high enough;

with S: A K x x x, C: Q T x x, 6S becomes odds on. there's no way to find partner's value in club or wasted in hearts. but i do respect opener's 4S choices. so pass by east then.

 

btw, 4h splinter took too much room, i would go slowly as 3h bid, limit raise or better.

 

further question, what do you bid, if bidding goes 1s (2h) ?

S: K J x x x

H: x

D: A x x x

C: x x x

actually i would bid 4h here, showing good 4s raise, probably 7-10hcp. so 4h is no longer splinter within my partnership.

 

any comments ?

 

shan

[inquiry]

You have no choice now but to bid 5♠ slam invite with good trumps. This is of course, not a horrible option. But I agree wiht those who are not overly happy iwht the splinter 4♥. The problem with 4♥ is your parnter lacks first or second round diamond control, lacks first round club control, and your splinter might be a singleton, and it is possible your partner may lack first round heart control. How can you expect him to bid anything except 4♠. You set your self up for this situation when you bid 4♥ (if you planned along to follow 4♥ with 5♠, then give yourself credit for being quite clever... if you hadn't planned on a 5♠ rebid, then you are in a bad way.

 

I am very fond of 2NT hee with this hand as good fit, limit raise OR BETTER, forcing to see what partner bids. We use 3♣ by opener suggest bad values (which looking at our aces and kings we can expect)...with this monster hand with first round control in all three side suits, this is how I would start.

[Chamaco]

I am very fond of 2NT hee with this hand as good fit, limit raise OR BETTER, forcing to see what partner bids.

Ben, after

 

1♠-(2♥)-2NT*-(4♥) *= LIMIT+, 4+ TRUMPS

?

 

Is opener's pass forcing ?

I expect the answer is straightforward if we are ar Red vs White, but what at other vulnerabilities ?

 

And what about:

 

1♠-(2♥)-2NT*-(5♥)

?

[whereagles]

If you allow me to butt-in, according to Robson/Segal,

 

1S 2H 2NT 4H

pass = not forcing. An "inv+" raise only sets up a forcing pass if opps go to the 5-level.

 

1S 2H 2NT 5H

pass = by the rule above, it's forcing.

 

But of course, you can invent other rules.

[pclayton]

I wouldn't have splintered with this, I think the hand is way too strong; 3♥ looks normal enough. I can't see how this being a competitive auction affects my decision either.

 

This looks like a hand from an AC; i.e., partner took a looooong time to bid 4♠; would you be barred?

 

My play is to repeat the cue, then 5♠ which should show both minor suit controls and focus on the need for trump.

[inquiry]

I am very fond of 2NT hee with this hand as good fit, limit raise OR BETTER, forcing to see what partner bids.

Ben, after

 

1♠-(2♥)-2NT*-(4♥) *= LIMIT+, 4+ TRUMPS

?

 

Is opener's pass forcing ?

I expect the answer is straightforward if we are ar Red vs White, but what at other vulnerabilities ?

 

And what about:

 

1♠-(2♥)-2NT*-(5♥)

?

No, opener's pass is not forcing. But are you going to pass? Surely not. Opener's pass does tell you a few things (along with their 5♥ bid vul). Opener is not looking at a few tricks in hearts. The big fear with this hand for slam is partner has something like...

 

♠K9xxx ♥AKx ♦QJx ♣xx. or ♠QJxxx ♥KQJ ♦QJx ♣Qx or whatever your minimum opening bid is with heart values. On this hand, you might have two spade losers off the top. But with that hand, your partner would double 4♥. On the other hand, I would play 2NT by me, 5♥ by them forcing, so partner's pass of 5♥ would get me excited. The more they bid in hearts and the less partner doubles them, the more I like my hand.

[flytoox]

I personnally think here 4H is the right bid. If you start with 2N, you still dont know what to do. After 4H, 5S really tells your story perfectly. You have a great hand, you have everthing under control, ur only concern is the trump quality.

[HeartA]

Agree with Ben's analysis. With first controls on all side suits, to cue-bid 3H is better than splinter 4H. But since North has bid 4H, 6S would be my first choice. If I have some agreement with pd, I might try 5N, so that if he has 2 honors in spades and CK, he could bid 6C.

[junyi_zhu]

I personnally think here 4H is the right bid. If you start with 2N, you still dont know what to do. After 4H, 5S really tells your story perfectly. You have a great hand, you have everthing under control, ur only concern is the trump quality.

that's not true, give your partner SAKQJx HAx Dxxx Cxxx, do you have good play in 6S? or Even SAKQJx HAxx Dxx Cxxx, do you really like your chance in 6S?

Or SKQJTx HAx DQxxx xx, do you have any play in 6S? Actually, if you really want to splinter 4H, the next bid can't be 5S, it should be 5H to show your void in hearts, now partner knows you have both minor suits controlled, void in hearts, but not strong enough to ERKC dirrectly, he would then re-evaluate his hand and draw the correct conclusion.

[flytoox]

I personnally think here 4H is the right bid. If you start with 2N, you still dont know what to do. After 4H, 5S really tells your story perfectly. You have a great hand, you have everthing under control, ur only concern is the trump quality.

that's not true, give your partner SAKQJx HAx Dxxx Cxxx, do you have good play in 6S? or Even SAKQJx HAxx Dxx Cxxx, do you really like your chance in 6S?

Or SKQJTx HAx DQxxx xx, do you have any play in 6S? Actually, if you really want to splinter 4H, the next bid can't be 5S, it should be 5H to show your void in hearts, now partner knows you have both minor suits controlled, void in hearts, but not strong enough to ERKC dirrectly, he would then re-evaluate his hand and draw the correct conclusion.

I doubt pd would have one of those hands given by you when he bid 4S. 4H promises short only, if pd has HA he may not devaluate it. On the other hand. Pd rates to have long heart in this sequence. Of course, there are hands where we might not have slam. But you wont pass 4H, would you?

 

There is no perfect bid here. If you start with 2H, or 3H, or whatever, if LHO rates to 4H and pd double it. What do you do? You still have problem.

 

On the other hand, I think 5H is a good choice.

[arrows]

Initially, I also wanted to say that 4♥ was no good in that it put youself in

such an awkward situation.

 

But to be honest and fair, when the auction went 1♠-2♥-? I think 4♥

was an easy choice (trap?) for most people. And it does put the image at focus

immediately....

 

I think the problem here is to estimate how many hearts partner has, and I

guess the expectation should be 4. Given this condition, too many minium

hands with wasted value in hearts may still produce a slam

with reasonable play, unless off 2 top trumps

[junyi_zhu]

I personnally think here 4H is the right bid. If you start with 2N, you still dont know what to do. After 4H, 5S really tells your story perfectly. You have a great hand, you have everthing under control, ur only concern is the trump quality.

that's not true, give your partner SAKQJx HAx Dxxx Cxxx, do you have good play in 6S? or Even SAKQJx HAxx Dxx Cxxx, do you really like your chance in 6S?

Or SKQJTx HAx DQxxx xx, do you have any play in 6S? Actually, if you really want to splinter 4H, the next bid can't be 5S, it should be 5H to show your void in hearts, now partner knows you have both minor suits controlled, void in hearts, but not strong enough to ERKC dirrectly, he would then re-evaluate his hand and draw the correct conclusion.

I doubt pd would have one of those hands given by you when he bid 4S. 4H promises short only, if pd has HA he may not devaluate it. On the other hand. Pd rates to have long heart in this sequence. Of course, there are hands where we might not have slam. But you wont pass 4H, would you?

 

There is no perfect bid here. If you start with 2H, or 3H, or whatever, if LHO rates to 4H and pd double it. What do you do? You still have problem.

 

On the other hand, I think 5H is a good choice.

Did I say what I would like to bid over 1S here? I am just saying that 4H followed by 5S can't be right for this hand, because 5H over 4H is clearly a better bid for this hand. What's the difference between 5H and 5S? 5H shows void in hearts and 5S doesn't. Also, it just doesn't make sense to me that your claim of 5S as asking for trump suit quality. It doesn't make sense, because if you only care about trump quality and nothing else, why don't you just bid 5S directly over 1S? Why do you give extra information to opps?

5S here can't be simply asking for trump quality, it also asks for the overall playing strength and 5H serves the same purpose and it just tells your void in hearts. 5S to ask for trump quality is one of the most widely abused bids, even by some pretty good players. Actually it applies only in some very rare situations I believe.

[flytoox]

I personnally think here 4H is the right bid. If you start with 2N, you still dont know what to do. After 4H, 5S really tells your story perfectly. You have a great hand, you have everthing under control, ur only concern is the trump quality.

that's not true, give your partner SAKQJx HAx Dxxx Cxxx, do you have good play in 6S? or Even SAKQJx HAxx Dxx Cxxx, do you really like your chance in 6S?

Or SKQJTx HAx DQxxx xx, do you have any play in 6S? Actually, if you really want to splinter 4H, the next bid can't be 5S, it should be 5H to show your void in hearts, now partner knows you have both minor suits controlled, void in hearts, but not strong enough to ERKC dirrectly, he would then re-evaluate his hand and draw the correct conclusion.

I doubt pd would have one of those hands given by you when he bid 4S. 4H promises short only, if pd has HA he may not devaluate it. On the other hand. Pd rates to have long heart in this sequence. Of course, there are hands where we might not have slam. But you wont pass 4H, would you?

 

There is no perfect bid here. If you start with 2H, or 3H, or whatever, if LHO rates to 4H and pd double it. What do you do? You still have problem.

 

On the other hand, I think 5H is a good choice.

Did I say what I would like to bid over 1S here? I am just saying that 4H followed by 5S can't be right for this hand, because 5H over 4H is clearly a better bid for this hand. What's the difference between 5H and 5S? 5H shows void in hearts and 5S doesn't. Also, it's just doesn't make sense to me that your claim of 5S as asking for trump suit quality. It doesn't make sense, because if you only care about trump quality and nothing else, why don't you just bid 5S directly over 1S? Why do you give extra information to opps?

5S here can't be simply asking for trump quality, it also asks for the overall playing strength and 5H serves the same purpose and it just tells your void in hearts. 5S to ask for trump quality is one of the most widely abused bids, even by some pretty good players. Actually it applies only in some very rare situations I believe.

You cannot bid 5S directly over 2H because if you bid 5S after 2H, pd will go to 6S with H control. Isnt 5S asking for heart control over 2H?

[junyi_zhu]

I personnally think here 4H is the right bid. If you start with 2N, you still dont know what to do. After 4H, 5S really tells your story perfectly. You have a great hand, you have everthing under control, ur only concern is the trump quality.

that's not true, give your partner SAKQJx HAx Dxxx Cxxx, do you have good play in 6S? or Even SAKQJx HAxx Dxx Cxxx, do you really like your chance in 6S?

Or SKQJTx HAx DQxxx xx, do you have any play in 6S? Actually, if you really want to splinter 4H, the next bid can't be 5S, it should be 5H to show your void in hearts, now partner knows you have both minor suits controlled, void in hearts, but not strong enough to ERKC dirrectly, he would then re-evaluate his hand and draw the correct conclusion.

I doubt pd would have one of those hands given by you when he bid 4S. 4H promises short only, if pd has HA he may not devaluate it. On the other hand. Pd rates to have long heart in this sequence. Of course, there are hands where we might not have slam. But you wont pass 4H, would you?

 

There is no perfect bid here. If you start with 2H, or 3H, or whatever, if LHO rates to 4H and pd double it. What do you do? You still have problem.

 

On the other hand, I think 5H is a good choice.

Did I say what I would like to bid over 1S here? I am just saying that 4H followed by 5S can't be right for this hand, because 5H over 4H is clearly a better bid for this hand. What's the difference between 5H and 5S? 5H shows void in hearts and 5S doesn't. Also, it's just doesn't make sense to me that your claim of 5S as asking for trump suit quality. It doesn't make sense, because if you only care about trump quality and nothing else, why don't you just bid 5S directly over 1S? Why do you give extra information to opps?

5S here can't be simply asking for trump quality, it also asks for the overall playing strength and 5H serves the same purpose and it just tells your void in hearts. 5S to ask for trump quality is one of the most widely abused bids, even by some pretty good players. Actually it applies only in some very rare situations I believe.

You cannot bid 5S directly over 2H because if you bid 5S after 2H, pd will go to 6S with H control. Isnt 5S asking for heart control over 2H?

This is another wrong bid. Can you contruct a hand that only needs specific H information only to bid 6S? Even if you hold such a hand, you still can get the the heart suit information by some cuebids at low level. For example: SAKxxx Hxx D- CAKQxxx, you can just bid 3H, not 5S(even 5H ask ERKC would have some merrits if you need a grandslam swing). And I guarantee that you may hold such kind of hands once in more than 30 years. Direct jumping to 5 level to ask specific suit controls is another widely misused bid by most players. Anyway, enough for me, I'd better stop here.

[cf_John0]

You have no choice now but to bid 5♠ slam invite with good trumps. This is of course, not a horrible option. But I agree wiht those who are not overly happy iwht the splinter 4♥. The problem with 4♥ is your parnter lacks first or second round diamond control, lacks first round club control, and your splinter might be a singleton, and it is possible your partner may lack first round heart control. How can you expect him to bid anything except 4♠. You set your self up for this situation when you bid 4♥ (if you planned along to follow 4♥ with 5♠, then give yourself credit for being quite clever... if you hadn't planned on a 5♠ rebid, then you are in a bad way.

Wonderful!

[Winstonm]

Thanks for all the discussion everyone. There are a couple of points I think to be made and they are only my opinion so please take them only for what they are worth.

 

First, with you holding so many controls in the minors this hand is quite slam orientated, though minimal.

 

Second, the overcall is in heart, making it less likely that your pard has wasted heart cards.

 

Third, partner should for the most part have decent to good spade support as this is 1 of 2 suits missing the most HCPs.

 

Finally, Fred G. has stated that a bid should either tell your pard something or ask something. My own vote is for 5H.

 

Why? This confirms 3 things in 1 bid. One: first round heart control. Two: First round club control. Three: first round diamond control. Bypassing the lower ranking suit to show the void/ace must without question show the missing two control - what else could you hold to make this bid? If missing 1, you could always cue bid the 1 you have and if partner cue bids the other then you could cue bid hearts. By bypassing both, you show both.

 

Finally, this hand is so slammish and partner is so likely to hold cards that work it is worth the risk (I think) to venture to the 5 level.

 

Anyway, that's my thoughts.

 

WinstonM