Does anybody actually use Swiss raises anymore?

[straube]

[*]The "slam-killing" effect of 1M 2NT as NAT FG would be less pronounced than implied - there are a bunch of semi-BAL hands which make it into the modern suite of 2NT openings, maybe even the odd 5431 with some partnerships. Also, partner (in this case opener) has had a shot already. So yes, there may be the odd tight-but-reachable slam inadvertently pre-empted, but the practical game level upsides (to which I think you concur) in practise outweigh this.

 

It would be nice to have a study of how each use imps out.

 

We could be victims of group think, but almost everyone I know or come across does not play 2N as nat FG and whether 2N should be LR+ or FR seems to be the main divide. It's hard to say whether folks feel that it's more important for the FR to be shown or for the NAT FG to stay low (and they are partly different sides of the same coin), but if we're just looking at how we weigh their use as a pair...

 

[*]The thing about two way bids is that they ideally need to be very similar or very distinct. Very similar (e.g. same shape, split ranges) mean that partner in competition can act based on the known bit (e.g. fit in the example case). Very distinct in competition means that discrete actions can be made with each type, or, even better, no further action with one (e.g. a weak type) and action with the other (e.g. a strong type).

 

Yes, I think is partly why the IMPrecision 1D response works and why the Polish Club doesn't.

 

[*]Related to the above, I'm not sure how good FG clubs or FG BAL is. Opposite a major suit opening, they both lend themselves to defence opposite heavy barrage - maybe this is good. FG clubs or limit raise would appear ostensibly worse, you haven't even got a forcing pass option available under heavy barrage. FG clubs or FG raise is perhaps between the two in efficacy under heavy barrage (e.g. DBL with clubs or BAL raise, bid with shaped raise).

 

Both are difficult, but I would rather be in the first position than the second...

 

1M P 2C (5D) ? where 2C is bal or clubs

vs

1M P 2C (5D) ? where 2C is FR or clubs

[newroad]

Hi Straube

 

In short, I agree substantively with AWM's most recent post, and with respect to the three points in your most recent

 

1. Agreed
   
2. Not sure I know enough about IMPrecision to say, but your rationale is not entirely clear to me
   
3. Agreed (I think that's what I said earlier - FG C or FG BAL > FG C or FG Raise > FG C or GI Raise)
   

 

Regards, Newroad

[straube]

Regarding 2)

 

1C-1D as the equivalent of 0-4 or 11+ hcps is a 2-way bid of very distinct ranges such that unless opener can force or invite game opposite 0-4 there opener can make a variety of non-forcing rebids and see whether partner passes or forces game. 1C-1D, 1M are natural and forcing but 1C-1D, 1N and 1C-1D, 2m are natural and not forcing.

 

I was contrasting to Polish Club, where 1C is a 2-way bid of 12-14 bal or minimum 4414s or medium club hands or a variety of stronger hands mostly of 18+ strength. Since the ranges are contiguous and since 1C forces at least an 1D response (often a 2-way bid itself) I think it runs against the idea of using 2-way bids for very similar or distinct purposes.

 

Regarding 3)

 

I misread your prior post and I think we have the same preference.

[Siegmund]

Wow, startled to see my own thread pop back up.

 

Just chiming in to say that there is at least one person here who is a big fan of 2NT as NAT GF (and I do in fact play it that way with two frequent partners.) Not a big fan at all of Jacoby (I'd generally rather responder describe his own hand than ask about opener's). Of course I am also a fan of Polish type clubs, though the exact strengths and types of hands included in 1C is somewhere there is room for a lot of experimentation yet :)

[newroad]

Hi Straube.

 

I don't think we quite have the same preference (I still prefer 2C as FG C or FG raise) but we agree on the order we'd rather be dealing with under heavy barrage.

 

[siegmund] Good to see there are still some true believers in 2NT as NAT, FG :)

 

Regards, Newroad