Assign the blame, # 1086

[nikos59]

In a previous posting I asked you not to assign the

blame for a hand. But in the same tournament

two friends who know that I participate in an Internet

forum (them being unconnectioned) asked me

to ask said forum (i.e. you) to arbitrate in their

dispute.

 

[hv=d=n&v=b&w=sj109752hk5dj9ck106&e=sak86ha1074d10432c2]266|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

The bidding goes:

 

North East South West

1D pass 1NT pass

2C dbl pass 2S

pass pass 3C dbl

all pass

 

3C doubled made with an overtrick and 870 didn't trouble

the scorers especially sinve EW were able to make 4S.

 

East said: I thought you had 3-4 small spades and a

club stack, with 6 spades you should repeat or even jump

to 4S immediately.

West said: For all I know your initial double may only

show a penalty pass of diamonds; you should raise to

3S; still better, overcall 1S immediately.

 

I think both are partly guilty, because it should be

clear to them that it is their partner who has

the remaining spades. But perhaps I am influenced

by seeing all four hands. Your opinion?

 

Nikos

[Free]

1) I'd overcall 1♠.

 

2) After 1NT I'd overcall 2♠ with the West hand.

 

3) The 2nd Dbl CAN'T be penalty Dbl, since West has 3 ♣s. So rebid ♠s

 

Imo, West has more blame than East.

[EricK]

West looks more to blame to me.

 

Eric

[pclayton]

The double of 3♣ on KTx mystifies me. I think its a clear 3♠ call. East did fine, I might overcall 1♠, but probably not. I'm not sure I can get to the 18 pt game, but +170 should be ok.

 

I think the toughest question is the call over the upcoming FOUR clubs.

 

East 20% / West 80%.

[Chamaco]

East's 2nd round sandwich t/o double should promise more or less east's hand: it guarantees 44 in unbid and a sound opener.

 

Hence, with West's hand I would not bid 2S: the hand is too distributional.

 

I would be torn between a jump to 3 and 4 spades, and after that I'd respect any decision by pard, who will be better placed once we describe the distributional nature of our hand.

 

The failure to make a jumpbid was probably considered an underbid by west, and I suppose he used his final double as "card-showing" (= "pard, even if I made a minimum respose to your t/o double, I am not broke"), but it was a poor decision.

 

Nonetheless, East, knowing pard had a minimum hand (he passed throughout and responded a minimum up-the-line bid to his t/o double) should see as an obvious fact that his pard will hardly contribute more than 1 trick, and should retreat to 3 spades.

 

I do not like assigning blame. However, I'd say 75% west - 25 east (for his finall pass of pard's double).

[mikestar]

East said: I thought you had 3-4 small spades and a

club stack, with 6 spades you should repeat or even jump

to 4S immediately.

 

On the bidding West is very unlikely to have a club stack. I would think that West's double is card showing, implying minimum spades but a desire to compete. He will likely also have something in clubs though not a stack. So East's pass of the double might be OK with something like Kx of clubs, but not with a stiff.

 

East's contention that West should be bidding more spades is entirely correct. I think that 2S folowed by 3S is reasonable--the wasted minor suit honors incline me toward caution and +170 on this hand should be good if 4S does make. But with a certain 9 card fit and a probable 10 card fit, West has to keep on bidding spades.

 

 

West said: For all I know your initial double may only

show a penalty pass of diamonds; you should raise to

3S; still better, overcall 1S immediately.

 

 

Wrong. Many modern player don't use trap passes at all and follow a rule like Ben's (from Robson-Segal): "All doubles are takeout until we have found a fit". But even those players (including myself) who do play trap passes play this double as takeout--it is a hand that is the right strength but the wrong shape for a takeout double--a hand with short clubs. Typically, there is diamond length but that is not promised.

 

These are the cases where a trap pass would be indicated:

• (1D)-P-(xN)-P-(P)-X
  
• (1D)-P-(xN)-P-(yD)-X
  

Diamonds have not been raised and no new suits have been bid. A misfit is likely and I cannot have the right shape for a takeout double now if I didn't have it over the opening bid. If I have the shape but not the strenth, I sell out on these auctions. In all other cases, the double is for takeout. After diamonds are raised, double on the right shape but not enough strenght for an iniital double is reasonable because the auction shows a fit.

 

With a minimum double, East must pass 2S. There is merit in an initial 1S overcall, but it could bury a heart fit. Though not the only choice, East's initial pass is perfectly reasonable.

 

I make it about 80-20 West. West misbid terribly but East shouldn't leave the double in with a stiff.

[HeartA]

East's 2nd round sandwich t/o double should promise more or less east's hand: it guarantees 44 in unbid and a sound opener.

 

Hence, with West's hand I would not bid 2S: the hand is too distributional.

 

I would be torn between a jump to 3 and 4 spades, and after that I'd respect any decision by pard, who will be better placed once we describe the distributional nature of our hand.

 

The failure to make a jumpbid was probably considered an underbid by west, and I suppose he used his final double as "card-showing" (= "pard, even if I made a minimum respose to your t/o double, I am not broke"), but it was a poor decision.

 

Nonetheless, East, knowing pard had a minimum hand (he passed throughout and responded a minimum up-the-line bid to his t/o double) should see as an obvious fact that his pard will hardly contribute more than 1 trick, and should retreat to 3 spades.

 

I do not like assigning blame. However, I'd say 75% west - 25 east (for his finall pass of pard's double).

Agree except one thing: West 85% and East 15%.

[luis]

West is 100% guilty I think this is not even arguable.

First of all he can say 2s over 1NT, hard to do it but if you think you can lose the spade suit you should bid them.

Then bidding only 2s after pd showed both majors (and some diamonds) is not acceptable.

And then the horrible double of 3c.

[shanbari]

double by west is the worst bid, definately 3s by me knowing east's spade support and club shortage.

[arrows]

Yeah, West should take most of the blame.

 

I would have overcalled 1♠ with East's hand. It seems West did have a

point here. Fast in, fast out, esp in MP, whoever first find out the par point wins,

and ♠ is the boss. had East overcalled, their opps wouldn't get a chance to

make any noises.

 

But West's double to 3♣ is just...., and I am not able to find an

appropriate word for that. :blink:

[EricK]

To all the people who say they would have overcalled 1♠, would you still be saying that if the big fit happened to be in ♥?

 

Eric

[nickf]

shoot west