Grand in minor

[Curls77]

Hi all

What is the best, or proper way to find this grand slam in minor? We play pretty basic 2/1. EW are silent through out. IMPs

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sjhadakt3ckqj9743&n=sa9hqj8dj98762ca8&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1dp2cp]266|200|2C is GF[/hv]

 

Also, could South prefer to play in ♣ ?

Thanks

[manudude03]

After 1D-2C-2D, I like to play that 3S still shows 4 card support (with 3, either rebid a 4 card major or just raise), so bidding 7m or 7N becomes trivial here. 1D-2C-2D-3S-4C-4D/H/N (depending on what asks for key cards)- 2+Q response, 7N. Maybe 7m is "safer" so far as you only go 1 down if diamonds are 3-0 offside, but you're losing at MPs and 2 imps a lot of the time)

[ahydra]

1D-3C (fit jump)

3NT-4D

4S-4NT (North should cue - his hand is not terrible, he has two aces and six trumps, he already denied slam interest but partner is trying anyway; South asks for keycards)

5S-7NT (North fakes the DQ knowing of a ten-card fit, South can count fifteen tricks)

 

If South starts with 2C I think it would go 2D-4D (or maybe a 3S splinter as manudude03 suggests, if you have that agreement). Then continue as above from 4S.

 

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

After N opens 1♦, S can pretty much keycard in ♦ as soon as he knows N has at least 4, N will show the Q♦ with the known 10 card fit and S will bid 7N.

 

My auction if I didn't play fit jumps would be 1♦-2♣-2♦-4♥(keycard)-5♦(2+)-7N

 

My actual auction playing a 4 card diamond would be to ask aces straight over 1♦

[billw55]

My actual auction playing a 4 card diamond would be to ask aces straight over 1♦

And you will get a response denying the ♦Q. Now what?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

And you will get a response denying the ♦Q. Now what?

Good question.

In my auction, Responder would know of partner's 5+ cards ♦ but not know of a sure 6 cards.

I'd have to stop in 6D .

[Cyberyeti]

And you will get a response denying the ♦Q. Now what?

Of course I won't, I've shown 4+ diamonds by asking aces with 4♥ (3♥ is the void for us) and partner has 6 so he'll show the Q.

[Zelandakh]

My actual auction playing a 4 card diamond would be to ask aces straight over 1♦

You would not consider a 1NT opening then? That makes it a more interesting problem I think.

 

Playing relay responses you can find out about North's 6 diamonds at the 2 level via:

 

1♦ - 1♥ = INV+ relay

1♠ = min without 4 spades (unless 4441/4450)

... - 1NT = GF relay

2♦ = 6+ diamonds, no other 4 card suit,

 

which makes it pretty trivial. Why specifically grand in a minor by the way? 7NT looks reasonable too.

[Curls77]

So, it would be a big mistake from N to conceal diamond lenght and bid 2N to show min hand but with both majors stopped?

 

 

Why specifically grand in a minor by the way? 7NT looks reasonable too.

You're right.. So long minors and double fit blinded us, we didn't even realize there is a play in NT

[bd71]

My partner and I play 2/1 with a handful of extras. I think our auction would go:

 

1♦ 2♣*     *Unambiguous game-force

2♦* 3♠**    *5+♦, could still hold 4cM **Splinter, extent of ♦ fit undiscussed

3N* 4♦**    *Non-serious **Minorwood (If opener likes his two aces and bids 4♣ with "serious" interest, it proceeds the same regardless.)

4N* 6♦**    *2 w/o Q, North might believe we have only 6-3 fit, so won't fake the Q **South might see only 5-4 fit, so won't go 7 w/o the Q despite all keycards and counting

 

Cliffs notes: due to likely uncertainty on both sides about extent of diamond fit, we would peter out in 6♦

 

Lesson: have an agreement that splinters always guarantee a 9-card fit based on what non-splintering partner has shown. With that agreement, or if North makes that assumption during the auction even without the agreement, I think this grand is easy.

 

Good illustrative auction to take back to partner...

[mr1303]

The only challenge here is does North show ♦Q here or not.

 

The rest of the bidding is fairly trivial.

[billw55]

Of course I won't, I've shown 4+ diamonds by asking aces with 4♥ (3♥ is the void for us) and partner has 6 so he'll show the Q.

Ah ok, understand.

 

Will partner also do this with 5 diamonds?

[Fluffy]

So, it would be a big mistake from N to conceal diamond lenght and bid 2N to show min hand but with both majors stopped?

Not big, somewhat unlucky. I would also have problems to find the 10th diamond. Rebidding 1NT with that shape would be pretty normal as it is a cheap bid, but rebidding 2NT over 2♣ on the contrary is not that good, if fact I play 1♦-2♣-2NT with some partners as maximum (14), rebidding 2♦ even with 3 cards when minimum.

[Free]

Opener has a clear 2♦ rebid, not sure though if responder's 3♠ is a splinter for ♦ or a self-splinter. Either way, South can always use Blacky once trumps are set.

 

The real difficulty is if North shows the ♦Q. If he doesn't (5♥ response over Blacky), then perhaps 5NT should be some kind of ask for extra trump length (since 5♠ is King ask).

[Cyberyeti]

You would not consider a 1NT opening then? That makes it a more interesting problem I think.

 

 

Would be equally easy for us over a 1N opener.

 

1N-2♠(signoff one minor or GF slam interest both)

3♣(4+♦)-4♥(keycard ♦, at least 5-4 in the minors either way round)

5♦(can afford to show Q)-7N

[Cyberyeti]

Ah ok, understand.

 

Will partner also do this with 5 diamonds?

No, he needs to be pretty sure you have 10 between the 2 hands, so you can miss grand on 5-5 fit.

[mike777]

don't think north has to show QD. 2d must show 6d here I don't rebid jxxxx in fact I almost never rebid a 5 card suit.

 

I just ace ask over 2d, nothing fancy.

[Cyberyeti]

don't think north has to show QD. 2d must show 6d here I don't rebid jxxxx in fact I almost never rebid a 5 card suit.

 

I just ace ask over 2d, nothing fancy.

This is fine in 2/1

 

some other systems have to rebid 2♦ with 5♦/4M and insufficient to reverse.

[Zelandakh]

Would be equally easy for us over a 1N opener.

Does your regular partner read these forums? If not, I would be interested if you gave them this 7-4 hand blind whether they chose to treat it as "both minors" or "one-suited with clubs". If they choose the latter then finding the 3rd round diamond "control" becomes interesting.

[lycier]

Hi all

What is the best, or proper way to find this grand slam in minor? We play pretty basic 2/1. EW are silent through out. IMPs

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sjhadakt3ckqj9743&n=sa9hqj8dj98762ca8&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1dp2cp]266|200|2C is GF[/hv]

 

Also, could South prefer to play in ♣ ?

Thanks

 

It is a simple question,the sequences are at below:

[hv=d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1dp2c(GF)p2d(five%20cards%20plus)p4d(minorwood%5BRKCB%5D)p4n(2%20key%20cards)p7dppp]133|100[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

Does your regular partner read these forums? If not, I would be interested if you gave them this 7-4 hand blind whether they chose to treat it as "both minors" or "one-suited with clubs". If they choose the latter then finding the 3rd round diamond "control" becomes interesting.

No he doesn't, but we have ways of showing that it's lots-4 if partner doesn't immediately show 4 diamonds and 1N-3♣ (our good hand with clubs) specifically denies another 4 card suit.

[fromageGB]

Ah ok, understand.

Will partner also do this with 5 diamonds?

 

No, he needs to be pretty sure you have 10 between the 2 hands, so you can miss grand on 5-5 fit.

Bill, if you as teller know that there is a 10 card fit, and asker doesn't, you reply as if you have the queen because with 10 cards the queen drops on a 2-1 break, and in some of the 3-0 breaks you can finesse the second round. With only a 9 card fit there is a much bigger chance of losing a trick.

[mikeh]

I love the absolute certainty that so many posters seem to feel about their own methods.

 

As an example, we have players asserting that over opener's 2♦ rebid (a call with which I agree...we should never conceal a 6 card suit if possible, and there is lots of time to bid notrump later), an immediate keycard promises 4 card support, so opener can show the non-existent Queen.

 

I am not saying that this is unplayable. Playing my preferred methods, it makes perfect sense, but this is because I use 2♦ as a catch-all bid by opener, and I don't show any extra length at all. When opener could bid that way with 4 diamonds, and responder takes control by keycarding, it is probably fairly safe to play this method.

 

However, I don't see it at all in standard methods, wherein the 2♦ bid promises at least 5 diamonds. Give responder x Ax Axx AKQJxxx and the response to keycard is all he needs to count tricks. Partner shows KQxxxx but only holds Kxxxxx and we will end up in a grand needing 2-2 diamonds, which is not a good spot.

 

Then we have a player saying that 2♦ usually delivers a 6 card suit.

 

These approaches, which all make bidding grand trivial, are non-standard yet are being posted in the I/A forum by players who write as if their treatments are normal.

 

In reality, I think this hand is more complex than these players are willing to admit.

 

Assuming that 2♦ shows 5 or more, then responder might well keycard, expecting partner to usually hold the Q, and then he has to make a guess.

 

If partner holds only 5 diamonds, the suit might behave and he might hold 6 in which case we are strong favourites. I wouldn't bid grand knowing that we need a 2-3 break (or a restricted choice should he be 9xxxx!) but I might if I knew it was at worst on a 2-2 break. He'd need to be 5332, and not willing or able to rebid 2N, and surely most 5332 hands with no diamond card above the J would be able to bid 2N. So I might well take the gamble.

 

Responder might anticipate this problem and set trump. I wouldn't splinter because I want to control the auction. I would bid 3♦. Now partner bids 3N to slow things down. I bid 4♦ to force a cuebid, and while I am maybe biased, I think this sequence definitely shows the 4th trump. Over a 4♠ cue, my 4N would (not for me, but for most) be keycard and now, due to partner having raised diamonds twice and shown very strong slam interest, I would own to the diamond Q.

 

That makes 7N a reasonable gamble. It is almost always cold.

[monikrazy]

I agree with 2♦ rebid by opener. Even though this does not always promise 6, its very important responder knows that we did not open a 3 or 4 card suit.

 

Responder can then set trump with 3d (forcing), we can cue our spade control, and responder should have no trouble getting us to slam from there . NT should be safest as we have risk of ruff in both non-trump minor.

 

As to the problem of how can responder check whether opener has 5 or 6 diamonds (and thus how large of a danger the outstanding Q presents) - what would a jump to 5c or 6c by responder after 3d promise? Could either of those bids help find the grand.