2C over 1NT forcing

[Shugart23]

with 5 H hearts, 4 Spades, 2-2 in minors Or with 5 Hearts,3,3,2 clubs, I respond 2C to forcing NT. Is my partner required to alert (that my clubs may be as few as 2) in ACBL-land vs just saying 'forcing' ? Thanks

[jillybean]

So the auction is 1♥ (P) 1N (P) 2♣ ?

 

Is the 2♣ bid forcing, or just the 1N?

[Shugart23]

So the auction is 1♥ (P) 1N (P) 2C ?

 

Is the 2♣ bid forcing, or just the 1N?

yes, that is the auction and no, my 2C bid is not necessarily forcing

[TylerE]

My read of the chart says yes. If an opening or response in a minor is <3 cards, it's not considered a natural call and should be alerted, unless their is specific prodcedure in place that says other ways (e.g. short 1♣ is announced rather than alerted)

[Shugart23]

yes, that is the auction and no, my 2C bid is not necessarily forcing

partner might pass with 6 points and 5 or 6 Clubs

[Shugart23]

partner might pass with 6 points and 5 or 6 Clubs

forgot to mention that we play precision so the 1H bid is capped at 15 HCP

[jillybean]

I don't alert it and will be interested to know if it is.

[Shugart23]

My read of the chart says yes. If an opening or response in a minor is <3 cards, it's not considered a natural call and should be alerted, unless their is specific prodcedure in place that says other ways (e.g. short 1♣ is announced rather than alerted)

ok thanks TylerE...Better safe to alert than not, I suppose

[blackshoe]

The regulation is flawed, because this 2♣ bid is a rebid, not an opening bid, overcall, or response, and the discussion of natural bids does not include rebids, it is limited to opening bids, overcalls, and responses. One could argue that the implication of this is that no rebid (unless otherwise specifically addressed) requires an alert, but that's too pedantic even for me. B-)

 

This 2♣ rebid would not be "natural" if it were an opening bid, an overcall, or a response to either one. The Alert Chart specifies that "natural rebids" don't require an alert. Even if technically (see above) the word "natural" does not apply to rebids, I would say that the intent here is that a 2♣ rebid by opener that could have less that 3 clubs requires an alert.

 

The only "clubs could be as short as two" bid of clubs that requires an announcment is an opening bid at the one level. This 2♣ is neither an opening bid nor at the one level.

[Shugart23]

The regulation is flawed, because this 2♣ bid is a rebid, not an opening bid, overcall, or response, and the discussion of natural bids does not include rebids, it is limited to opening bids, overcalls, and responses. One could argue that the implication of this is that no rebid (unless otherwise specifically addressed) requires an alert, but that's too pedantic even for me. B-)

 

This 2♣ rebid would not be "natural" if it were an opening bid, an overcall, or a response to either one. The Alert Chart specifies that "natural rebids" don't require an alert. Even if technically (see above) the word "natural" does not apply to rebids, I would say that the intent here is that a 2♣ rebid by opener that could have less that 3 clubs requires an alert.

 

The only "clubs could be as short as two" bid of clubs that requires an announcment is an opening bid at the one level. This 2♣ is neither an opening bid nor at the one level.

 

 

Thanks..I think I'll start alerting the 2C bid, just to keep within the spirit of the regulation...but you make me think on another question regarding alerts which perhaps you could opine.

 

I open 1C (precision)and partner bids 2C which shows 8+ HCP and specifically denies a 4 card Major...Her 2C bid is natural but I have information that the opponents dont have....

 

Another example...I open 1C and partner jumps to 2H showing me 8+ HCP precisiely 4 Hearts and an undisclosed 5 card minor ....another natural bid by partner showing Hearts...again I have knowledge that the opponents dont have

 

Partner and I alert both these bids, but are we required to ?

[guido]

Thanks..I think I'll start alerting the 2C bid, just to keep within the spirit of the regulation...but you make me think on another question regarding alerts which perhaps you could opine.

 

I open 1C (precision)and partner bids 2C which shows 8+ HCP and specifically denies a 4 card Major...Her 2C bid is natural but I have information that the opponents dont have....

 

Another example...I open 1C and partner jumps to 2H showing me 8+ HCP precisiely 4 Hearts and an undisclosed 5 card minor ....another natural bid by partner showing Hearts...again I have knowledge that the opponents dont have

 

Partner and I alert both these bids, but are we required to ?

 

Since your 2C and 2H responses give specific information about a suit or suits not bid, they are not "natural" calls. I'm fairly sure that is the ACBL's intent. I am more than fairly sure it's a muddle.

 

At any rate, I would alert both calls. I would not be upset in the opponents did not, but I WOULD expect a delayed alert before the opening lead.

 

2C with a doubleton when 4-5-2-2 is different. "Everyone" knows you rebid 2C with this over a forcing 1NT and partner expects you to hold 3+ clubs. The same is not true if you rebid 2C with 5-3-3-2.

[blackshoe]

Thanks..I think I'll start alerting the 2C bid, just to keep within the spirit of the regulation...but you make me think on another question regarding alerts which perhaps you could opine.

 

I open 1C (precision)and partner bids 2C which shows 8+ HCP and specifically denies a 4 card Major...Her 2C bid is natural but I have information that the opponents dont have....

 

Another example...I open 1C and partner jumps to 2H showing me 8+ HCP precisiely 4 Hearts and an undisclosed 5 card minor ....another natural bid by partner showing Hearts...again I have knowledge that the opponents dont have

 

Partner and I alert both these bids, but are we required to ?

Hm. The uncontested auction goes 1♣-2♣. In SA or 2/1, if 2♣ is not alerted, it's a natural and limited raise and is not forcing. As does your 2♣ bid, it denies a 4 card major (for most people, anyway). If the SA or 2/1 pair were playing inverted minors, so that 2♣ is forcing, it's alerted. So I would alert yours too, on the grounds of unexpected strength compared to a standard simple raise. I don't think "denies a 4 card major" is relevant, though I would disclose it if asked about the bid. The second bid is not natural according to the ACBL, so I'd alert it too.

[LH2650]

The regulation is flawed, because this 2♣ bid is a rebid, not an opening bid, overcall, or response, and the discussion of natural bids does not include rebids, it is limited to opening bids, overcalls, and responses. One could argue that the implication of this is that no rebid (unless otherwise specifically addressed) requires an alert, but that's too pedantic even for me. B-)

 

This 2♣ rebid would not be "natural" if it were an opening bid, an overcall, or a response to either one. The Alert Chart specifies that "natural rebids" don't require an alert. Even if technically (see above) the word "natural" does not apply to rebids, I would say that the intent here is that a 2♣ rebid by opener that could have less that 3 clubs requires an alert.

 

The only "clubs could be as short as two" bid of clubs that requires an announcment is an opening bid at the one level. This 2♣ is neither an opening bid nor at the one level.

If I look under Charts Rules and Regulations > Alert Procedures on the ACBL website, I find: "Definition of expected length for natural bids for the Alert Procedure are:

◦Suit bids: ◾3+ in a minor and 4+ in a major for opening bids, rebids and responses."

 

That includes rebids.

[Mbodell]

I think 1M-1NT-2♣ which could be only 2 cards is supposed to have an alert, but few players do alert it.

[mike777]

I think 1M-1NT-2♣ which could be only 2 cards is supposed to have an alert, but few players do alert it.

 

 

yes....

 

 

1h=1nt

2c I doubt I ever alert

 

1s=1nt

2c(many play as BART so alert.)

[barmar]

From the OPENER'S REBIDS section of the Alert Procedure:

Opener's rebid of two of a minor over partner's forcing or semi-forcing notrump response to a major does not require an Alert if it shows three or more of the suit bid (4-5-2-2 does not require an Alert as long as responder expects three or more cards in the minor).

I think the general idea is that everyone knows that opener is forced to lie with this hand (unless they play Flannery). It's not really a matter of partnership understanding, it's general bridge knowledge, so no alert is really needed.

[Mbodell]

From the OPENER'S REBIDS section of the Alert Procedure:

 

I think the general idea is that everyone knows that opener is forced to lie with this hand (unless they play Flannery). It's not really a matter of partnership understanding, it's general bridge knowledge, so no alert is really needed.

 

Some people will also do it with (35)=3=2 to keep 2♦ longer/better.

[barmar]

Some people will also do it with (35)=3=2 to keep 2♦ longer/better.

I think that case would probably be alertable.

 

The regulation refers to "as long as responder expects three or more cards in the minor". I think the way to judge this is by what responder is expected to do if he has a singleton in opener's major and 4 cards in the minor -- does he pass (expecting that a 4-2 fit is unlikely)?

[nige1]

Opener's rebid of two of a minor over partner's forcing or semi-forcing notrump response to a major does not require an Alert if it shows three or more of the suit bid (4-5-2-2 does not require an Alert as long as responder expects three or more cards in the minor).

I think the general idea is that everyone knows that opener is forced to lie with this hand (unless they play Flannery). It's not really a matter of partnership understanding, it's general bridge knowledge, so no alert is really needed.

Thank you Barmar.

 

Barmar's assumption that 2/1 is general bridge knowledge stretches credulity almost as much as the ACBL's idea that partner could "expect three or more cards in the minor" when he knows that the bid must be made with 4522.

 

This method is so artificial, that you'd expect, sensible players to go the whole hog: preserve a natural 4+ card meaning for the 2♦ bid; and relegate 4522, 4531, 3532, 2533 to a dusbin bid of 2♣.

[PhilKing]

Why not just alert it?

[cherdano]

Or with 5 Hearts,3,3,2 clubs, I respond 2C to forcing NT.

I don't know about rules, but playing in the USA, this agreement is unexpected, useful for the opponents to know, and not natural. Sounds like an alert to me.

[Shugart23]

I don't know about rules, but playing in the USA, this agreement is unexpected, useful for the opponents to know, and not natural. Sounds like an alert to me.

I think you are right, but where does it end ...or does it ? Because of our treatment with the 2-5-3-2 hand,, For me and my partner, 1H -1NT-(forcing) - 2D now guarantees 4 Diamonds......I don't alert the 2D bid.....

[Vampyr]

I don't alert the 2D bid.....

 

Well, obviously you don't have to alert bids that show at least the "expected" length.

[barmar]

Thank you Barmar.

 

Barmar's assumption that 2/1 is general bridge knowledge stretches credulity almost as much as the ACBL's idea that partner could "expect three or more cards in the minor" when he knows that the bid must be made with 4522.

 

This method is so artificial, that you'd expect, sensible players to go the whole hog: preserve a natural 4+ card meaning for the 2♦ bid; and relegate 4522, 4531, 3532, 2533 to a dusbin bid of 2♣.

I think 2/1 is the system being taught to many (perhaps most) beginners in the US these days. The basics of the system are probably GBK in ACBL territory.

 

And remember that the forcing 1NT has to be announced. Even players who don't play 2/1 know what "forcing" means. They know that when you're forced to bid, you sometimes have to find the least lie. Do you

 

1. Rebid 2♥, lying about the length of your hearts?
   
2. Rebid 2♠, lying about your strength?
   
3. Rebid 2♣, lying about the length of your clubs?
   

Since it's well known that clubs are worthless :) the last case is the obvious choice.

[blackshoe]

If I look under Charts Rules and Regulations > Alert Procedures on the ACBL website, I find: "Definition of expected length for natural bids for the Alert Procedure are:

◦Suit bids: ◾3+ in a minor and 4+ in a major for opening bids, rebids and responses."

 

That includes rebids.

The definitions listed on the Chart do not include the word "rebids". Yet another place where the ACBL needs a good editor.