I [heart] Kokish

[jillybean]

Playing in a team game tonight and dying to roll out our new 2C responses, I pick up this hand...

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqt54hkdaqj6ca65&n=sht752dkt9872cqj4&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=2cp2dp2sp2np3dp5dppp]266|200[/hv]

 

+10 :)

 

One other team got to 5♦ by opening 1♠ and making a jump shift 3♦/1nt, I don't like J/S on less than 6-4 but perhaps it is no worse than opening 2C and bidding the 2 suits.

[1eyedjack]

WD. Personally I am in the 1S opening camp on that hand, but to each his own

[fromageGB]

So hey, the 2 suited variant strikes again! (Though it is a 1♠ open, you need the practice.)

One up for Kokish.

Not so sure about the 5♦ though. Where does opener go if she has a genuine 2♣ and you may have missed a slam? Would 4♦ have been forcing?

[PhilKing]

What has this got to do with Kokish?

[mcphee]

EOK would have harsh words for opening this hand 2C, as it just does not fit the requirements. How come responder did not show the 6 card diamond suit after 2S?

[jillybean]

So hey, the 2 suited variant strikes again! (Though it is a 1♠ open, you need the practice.)

One up for Kokish.

Not so sure about the 5♦ though. Where does opener go if she has a genuine 2♣ and you may have missed a slam? Would 4♦ have been forcing?

4♦ would have been the start of a keycard sequence for us.

[jillybean]

What has this got to do with Kokish?

EOK would have harsh words for opening this hand 2C, as it just does not fit the requirements. How come responder did not show the 6 card diamond suit after 2S?

Have you been following my other thread here?

 

I have just very recently added Kokish to the card and we were looking for ways to test it. My hand is difficult and while I agree this hand is not ideal for Kokish, it's not ideal for a SJS either. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to upgrade to 2C, it brings in our new toy and it's fun, which is probably best reason to play this game.

[gordontd]

I have just very recently added Kokish to the card and we were looking for ways to test it. My hand is difficult and while I agree this hand is not ideal for Kokish, it's not ideal for a SJS either. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to upgrade to 2C, it brings in our new toy and it's fun, which is probably best reason to play this game.

By "Kokish", do you mean something other than an artificial rebid of 2♥, showing either hearts or a strong balanced hand?

[Free]

20HCP of which a stiff King. The opening which describes this hand the best is 1♠. I also don't like the 5♦ bid, you could easily have slam here (♠K instead of the Q and you're there). And I also don't see the link with Kokish btw, but for the rest well done! ;)

[jillybean]

By "Kokish" I mean the Kokish sequences as posted in the other thread

 

2C 2D

2N (22-23)

 

2C 2D

2H 2S (puppet)

2N (24-25)

 

2C 2D

3N (26-27)

 

2C 2D

2H 2S (puppet)

3N (28-29)

 

Kokish showing major, or 2 suited M+m, S+H

 

2C 2D

2H 2S (puppet)

3C (hearts) 3H (hearts+clubs) 3D (hearts+diamonds)

 

 

2C 2D

2S 2N (puppet) note responder can raise spades with spade support

3S (spades) 3C (spades+clubs) 3D (spades+diamonds) 3H (spades+hearts)

[gordontd]

By "Kokish" I mean the Kokish sequences as posted in the other thread

I don't know which other thread you mean, but "Kokish" usually refers to the use of the 2♥ rebid after a 2♣ opener as a two-way bid showing either hearts or a strong balanced hand.

[jillybean]

I don't know which other thread you mean, but "Kokish" usually refers to the use of the 2♥ rebid after a 2♣ opener as a two-way bid showing either hearts or a strong balanced hand.

Ok, the "Kokish" version I have just picked up also incorporates a 2S puppet to 2N to show spades or 2 suited ♠+ hands.

This thread will make little sense if you haven't followed the earlier thread where I am lamenting over the control showing bids over 2C. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/61372-man-or-mouse/

[1eyedjack]

You may hve been a bit lucky that the oppo did not have a big fit to match your 10 card D fit. They would probably have got pretty cut up if they had ventured in on this hand, but one of the dangers of opening 2C is that it may be at 3H (by oppo) coming back to you before you have shown any shape at all, and no Kokish relays then are going to help.

[mikeh]

I was bemused by your description of the sequences that start with a rebid by opener of 2♠, since all of the next bids by opener are completely standard. But then I realized that what you were discussing, as 'kokish' is the perhps mandatory call of 2N. 2♠ doesn't look like a 'puppet' to me: it is always natural, but may have a second suit...that isn't the least bit unusual.

 

Making responder always bid 2N seems wrong to me. I assume, for example, that Kokish would want responder raising spades with a good hand and spade support.

 

I don't have any problem with the notion that responder should strain to bid 2N over 2♠, since this is just common sense on many hands, without a long suit and without primary support, we'd all rebid 2N anyway.

 

Btw, I really don't understand why you'd prefer to start with 2♣ rather than 1♠. You have nothing resembling a 2♣ opener in my book. Meanwhile, it seems trivial to reach 5♦ after 1♠ and far from clear to avoid slam after your 2♣. How responder can sign off in 5♦ with that hand is strange to me.

[jillybean]

It seems like I am confused, again.

 

My understanding is that 2C 2D 2S shows spades or spades + another suit. If responder has spades, she can raise spades immediately.

If responder does not have spade support they bid an automatic 2N (is this called a puppet?) allowing opener to clarify their hand.

I assume openers priority would be first to show a 2 suiter or bid 3S with 7+.

In our style, openers 2S rebid after a 2C opening shows 6+, with a more balanced hand we bid NT. Yes, AKQJT could be an exception.

 

As to the 1♠/2♣ choice; I agree with you and others, this is not a 2♣ opening. Having just changed our card we were looking for any excuse to open 2♣, and this was one :)

Our opponents at the other table did not find their ♦ game so we were able to claim a tounge-in-cheek victory for Kokish. At this stage in the evening we were not in contention to win anything, it was just fun. I'll talk with my partner about the 5♦ signoff some more.

 

After I add something to the card I find that I need to use, and abuse it a few times before I get a true grasp of it.

[PhilKing]

Have you been following my other thread here?

 

I have just very recently added Kokish to the card and we were looking for ways to test it. My hand is difficult and while I agree this hand is not ideal for Kokish, it's not ideal for a SJS either. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to upgrade to 2C, it brings in our new toy and it's fun, which is probably best reason to play this game.

 

Kokish was not use here at any stage - I think you need to reread what it is. And it's not a 2♣ opener anyway - you have five losers and no rebid problem after 1♠.

 

Anyway, after 2♣-2♦2♠, why on earth would North not bid 3♦? For me, a normal auction would be: 1♠-1NT-3♦-5♦, which I play as showing good trumps and nothing else.

[jillybean]

Kokish was not use here at any stage - I think you need to reread what it is. And it's not a 2♣ opener anyway - you have five losers and no rebid problem after 1♠.

This is what it is based on http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/kokish_relays.html

If it's not "Kokish" I don't have a name for it.

 

Kokish Relay Guidelines

 

 

Opener Responder Meaning

2♣ An opening bid showing strong values.

   2♦ Normally either a waiting bid or a negative bid. Other responses, per partnership agreement, are not possible.

2♥ This is the Kokish Relay, a puppet for responder to bid an automatic 2 Spades in order that the opener clarify his holding.

   2♠ The puppet bid.

2 NT Opener promises 25 plus points and a balanced distribution.

3♣ Opener promises a two-suited holding with Hearts and Clubs.

3♦ Opener promises a two-suited holding with Hearts and Diamonds.

3♥ Opener promises a one-suited holding with Hearts.

 

Opener Responder Meaning

2♣ An opening bid showing strong values.

   2♦ Normally either a waiting bid or a negative bid. Other responses, per partnership agreement, are not possible.

2♠ This is the Kokish Relay, a puppet for responder to bid an automatic 2 No Trump in order that the opener clarify his holding.

   2 NT The puppet bid.

3♣ Opener promises a two-suited holding with Spades and Clubs.

3♦ Opener promises a two-suited holding with Spades and Diamonds.

3♥ Opener promises a two-suited holding with Spades and Hearts. (Note: the general agreement is that the Spade suit is either equal to or longer than the Heart suit in length. Trick-taking ability is not part of the equation.)

3♠ Opener promises a one-suited holding with Spades.

[PhilKing]

This is what it is based on http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/kokish_relays.html

If it's not "Kokish" I don't have a name for it.

 

Ah, OK. It's called bullshit - they appear to be spewing random theory out of somewhere unpleasant, but it ain't Kokish.

[rwbarton]

A 2♠ rebid showing a spade one-suiter or a two-suiter with spades? How about "natural"?

[fromageGB]

Why would North not bid 3♦ at the second bid?

(1) some people play that responder should have a 7 card suit to bid it

(2) some people play transfers

(3) some people play responder with a long suit shows it immediately with the first bid.

It's a question of choice.

 

I think the reason sequences involving 2♠ are called "Kokish" is because Kokish came up with (as I understand it) a whole method of handling multiple suit combinations that involved a relay of 2♠ over 2♥, and 2NT over 2♠. 2NT may now be normal, but it is part of the "method", hence it is "Kokish".

 

As to terminology, if 2♦ is obligatory, 2♣ is a puppet, 2♦ is a relay, 2♥ is a puppet, and the following 2♠ is a relay. When opener bids spades as his first suit, 2♠ is not a true puppet (you could say it was a "semi-puppet" if you like, as 2NT is the most common response), and 2NT is a relay.

 

Responder - at least as I play it - does not always support spades immediately with support. She can have better suits elsewhere, so relays with 2NT to see if opener bids one of those as his second suit. And 2♠ could be 5 card when accompanied by a second suit.

[ArtK78]

What we've got here is failure to communicate.

 

I don't know where Bridgeguys got the idea that 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠ is anything other than a natural 2♠ call. It certainly has nothing to do with Kokish.

 

As mikeh said, there is a lot to be said for responder bidding 2NT over 2♠ to allow opener to more fully describe her hand. But it should not be a puppet. Indeed, on this hand responder has a perfectly good natural call of 3♦ on her six card diamond suit to the K. 5♦ should be reached. And all without an artificial call after the first two calls.

 

I, too, would open the strong hand 1♠. It is not close to a 2♣ opening for me - 5 losers, 17 HCP if you ignore the singleton ♥K.

[jillybean]

Thanks for putting me right and let me get this straight...

 

"Kokish" utilizes the various steps to show 2 point range NT openings 2C 2D 2N (22-23), 2C 2D 2H* 2S* 2N (24-25) etc

 

With a heart holding or a heart + minor opener bids a 2H puppet to 2S and then clarifies her holding.

2C 2D 2H* 2S* 3C hearts and clubs etc

 

With spades opener bids naturally (novel concept) 2C 2D 2S etc

 

I assume with H>S opener would use the 2H puppet and then raise spades. 2C 2D 2H* 2S* 3S

 

With S>H or 55 opener bids a natural 2C 2D 2S 3x 3H

[phoenix214]

I think using Gazzilli you can quite easily bid 5♦.

1♠-1NT

2♣(Clubs or strong)-3♦(Weak with 6+♦)

5♦

[gordontd]

"Kokish" utilizes the various steps to show 2 point range NT openings 2C 2D 2N (22-23), 2C 2D 2H* 2S* 2N (24-25) etc

Some play the stronger range as unlimited and forcing, to avoid ever having to jump-rebid 3NT.

 

And some reverse the two ranges, rebidding 2H with the weaker, so as to make use of the extra space with transfers that allow you to get out in 3 of a minor with a complete bust.

[jillybean]

nvm