Disater

[Ludu1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakt8hkq54d7caq83&n=sj53ha72djt3ckj64&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=1ddp1np3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

East had AKQXXX of ♦ so we quickly scored -200.6♣ would be a reasonable spot.

 

So, anyone to blame?

[aguahombre]

Some people take out takeout Doubles to a suit when they don't have the doubled suit stopped. North needn't worry about not getting to play the hand; he can still be the Declarer in Clubs.

 

This particular North does not have to fear the new regulations on hand-hogging, because his bidding will self-adjudicate.

 

Welcome aboard the forums, and I truly hope you were South.

[1eyedjack]

Personally I blame South. I am sure others will pile in and disagree.

 

My reasons, for what they are worth:

 

North has values for 1N and he has a balanced hand. Certainly he has a 4 card Club suit which he COULD bid, but of all the suits that doubler is least likely to hold if not perfect shape for the double, that is it.

 

North does not have a great Diamond guard. JTx is definitely not ideal, but while doubler is "takeout" that does not absolutely preclude the possibility of his having something to help in the suit,

West has had an opportunity to raise Diamonds and has declined to do so.

North is only bidding 1NT. If left there with Diamonds wide open there may be a limited number of cashing Diamond tricks, and 1N may still come home.

 

So the bottom line is that I do not read 1N as promising the earth in terms of Diamond guard, and there is a lot of room between 1N and 3N to confim whether or not that is the case, should South have concerns in that area, which he does.

[1eyedjack]

Duplicate deleted

[ArtK78]

Sorry, I blame North entirely.

 

Yes, North has a balanced hand. And he does have a partial stop in diamonds. But his partner made a takeout double. Assuming that his partner has a typical takeout double, he will have a small singleton diamond. So North should not hurry to suggest NT as a strain.

 

North can bid his 4 card suit and show values by bidding 3♣. If NT is still a possible contract, South will probably bid 3♦. Here, he may bid 3♦ but for a different reason, as he will bid again when North bids 3NT.

 

As a friend of mine has always said, just bid your cards and let partner bid his cards. Normally, this will work.

[gnasher]

Nobody promises much club length for a takeout double of 1♦. AKxx KQxx xx xxx would have been acceptable even in the 1960s; nowadays it could be AKxx KQxx xxx xx. Who would want to play 3♣ opposite either of those hands?

 

I think North's 1NT is normal, and South should bid 2♦ (or 3♦?) to investigate alternative strains. Even if North has a diamond stop, that doesn't mean we belong in 3NT. xxx xxx Axx Kxxx is a normal 1NT advance, but 5♣ is much better than 3NT.

[johnu]

1NT is about right based on overall values, but doesn't have a sure stopper in diamonds. Hearts and spades are only 3 card suits and I'm not in a desperate situation where I have to bid one of them. 2♣ doesn't show any values and as gnasher points out, could be a non-fitter. 3♣ shows values, but is the flattest possible hand with a ton of losers, and may be a non-fitter.

 

I would have bid 1NT and if the opponents run off 5 or 6 diamonds against a NT contract, I'll chalk it up to bad luck and be prepared to bid 1NT the next time this type of hand comes up. I would have more sympathy for South if he held a small doubleton diamond instead of singleton. With a small singleton, and 3NT uncertain even if North has a certain diamond stopper, it seems clear to bid 2♦ and investigate other possible contracts.

[the_clown]

100% South. Even if partner has a single Stopper 4M or 5♣ may be superior to 3N.

 

I don't see any alternative to 1N as North, 2♣ is an underbid and 3♣ will often be 4-3 fit or even 4-2 if you are out of luck

[the hog]

90% North. I know my eyesight is getting worse, but the D stopper escapes me. 10% South if he has played with this particular Nth before and knows Nth cannot bid.

[PhilKing]

It's a matter of style.

 

For me, I can double with a 4432 12 count, so I have to respond 1NT. South has to adjust and move with 2♦. Theoretically, we could play in 1NT off the diamond suit, but in practice, they usually raise.

 

As it went, you will occasionally escape when they view to lead a low diamond.

[aguahombre]

For those who can't stomach 1NT on JTX (me), believe we should have more clubs to bid 3♣, and dislike extending the range of a 2C response on a balanced hand quite this far ---consider a responsive cue. With this particular takeout double, Pard can easily confirm the extra strength and perfect shape with a re-cue.

 

With less strength but holding club length (4+) doubler would just bid 3C. With one of the 4-4 (3-2) examples provided by PK and Andy, she would just bid 2M.

[EricK]

I think the 1NT-ers have persuaded me that, with agreement, it is the best bid on the North hand. But what are the follow-ups? If south rebids a suit, how long is it, and how strong is his hand? If he cues 2♦, how strong is that (GF?), and what, if anything, does it say about suit lengths? Does 2NT/3NT by South show a double stopper, a single stopper or half a stopper plus hope? Also, has North explicitly denied a 4 card major by bidding 1NT? Or should he also choose 1NT on hands with a weak 4 card major and a good ♦ stop? So if South does cue 2♦, what does 2M by North mean - a good 3 card suit, or a bad 4 card suit?

 

I can see that with firm agreements, you are likely to get to the right game on most hands where game values are there - but I can also see without those agreements, both sides might be flailing about.

[helene_t]

It depends how you play the 2♦ cue by North. If it is forcing to suit agreement (as in North America) then I don't think it is practical. If North can pass a 2M bid by South then I think 2♦ is better than 1NT. But even so, of course you can also agree to bid 3♣ with hands like this, and then South might decide not to double with a minimum 4432 with a small doubleton clubs.

 

No blame, just another good opportunity to refine your agreements.

[ahydra]

With two of myself sitting NS, the auction might well start (1D)-X-2D-3D :) Here the 2D shows about 10+, no clear direction, and 3D asks for a stop (N hasn't denied a stop by bidding 2D - he might have both majors 4-4). North responds with 4C - and South might well go for the slam based on the fact that North's high cards must be in useful places if he doesn't have a diamond stop.

 

ahydra

[1eyedjack]

I play 2D+ as transfers, which may influence my preference for 1N.

[RSClyde]

It seems like a matter of style. I'm rigid (probably to a fault) about my takeouts having the right shape. I'll virtually never have 3 diamonds: if I can't overcall 1nt, then I don't want to bid that badly (unless I'm bigger than that). This is within the context of a style where partner will balance very light when his shape is right.

[neilkaz]

A good idea is to protect partner and rather than 3NT just force game (as his 1NT shows adequate HCP) with 2♦ and make sure ♦ are stopped and save room to find another contract if they are not.

 

As usual almost no OP can list the scoring here, but anyhow I'd have bid 1NT with PD's hand since I most certainly can X 1♦ with some stuff that favors the majors and doesn't have 4♣.

[GBinUS]

The basis of a takeout double - when I make one - is: a) I have opening values, b)I have at least 3 card support for all other suits (and therefore I am usually short in opponents' suit) or c) I have a hand too good for a simple overcall which I will clarify later.

 

Therefore it is my partner's duty to bid a suit if he has one. Let's go through the possible responses here: North has 10HCP in a 4333. 2♣ is 0-8 w/clubs denying a 4 card major. 1NT shows 6-9 or 10 with a good stopper. 3♣ shows 8+ with at least 4 clubs BUT NO 4 CARD MAJOR.

 

What does he hold? 10HCP, 4 clubs and no 4 card major OR diamond stopper. 1NT was simply wrong. 3NT was normal if a bit pushy, given that my partner has promised a decent diamond stopper and denied a 4 card major.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Norths bid was reasonable:

 

It showes values, instead of a 2C bid, and a jump to 3C, right on values may

lead to a silly 43 fit contract on the 3 level.

JTx will quite often make lots of holdings in partners hand into a full blown

stopper.

 

South bids were reasonable:

 

He could of course ask, are you really sure, but why should he, he knowes the

partnership has 25+, and the most likely game is 3NT.

 

After you scored -?, next board, move on.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[chasetb]

I blame North, because even though 1NT is right on values, you really need a stopper. Personally, I want 1.5 stoppers or more. I dunno if I would bid 1♥ or 2♣ - I want 5+ Clubs, but it is a nice 4-card suit, and there's a wider range for 2♣ than 1♥.

[steve2005]

Sorry, I blame North entirely.

 

Yes, North has a balanced hand. And he does have a partial stop in diamonds. But his partner made a takeout double. Assuming that his partner has a typical takeout double, he will have a small singleton diamond. So North should not hurry to suggest NT as a strain.

 

North can bid his 4 card suit and show values by bidding 3♣. If NT is still a possible contract, South will probably bid 3♦. Here, he may bid 3♦ but for a different reason, as he will bid again when North bids 3NT.

 

As a friend of mine has always said, just bid your cards and let partner bid his cards. Normally, this will work.

agree with this completely