Specific suit RKC ask after pattern resolution...

[straube]

I hope you will test Parity Cue Bidding along with DCB and spiral scans. I'm actually not very sure how DCB and spiral scans are different, but I've the impression that with spiral scans the captain hand skips certain steps so as not to ask for cards he holds.

[akhare]

 

1C--1H (15+,S W or GF)

1S--1Nt (15-20, S+C GF)

2D--2H (C void at least 4s trumps (2C is normally forced the only reason to bypass is void), Reverser S=>C)

2S--3D (ask, 5134)

3H--4D (S rkc, 2+Q no KD)

 

What is the order of suits for the RKC ask? Is it by the relative length of suits with some tie breaker for equal length suits?

[Free]

♠ AQJxx

♥ A

♦ xxx

♣ Axxx

 

♠ Kxxxx

♥ Qxxxx

♦ AKQ

♣ void

 

FWIW, I am attaching the MOSCITO auction because its a pretty amusing one

(Lots of different options in bidding the hand, but all roads lead to 7S)

 

1♣ - 1♦ (With a 5-5 shape and 9 slam points South's hand is a bit strong for a limited opening)

(1♦ = art GF, denies certain hand types)

1♥ - 2♣ (1♥ = Relay: Even with a minimum, opener prefers not to RR with a 5530 shape)

(2♣ = SS with Clubs or 2 suited with Blacks)

2♥ - 2♠ (2♥ = Reverse Relay, 0-1 Clubs and 4+ Spades)

(2♠ = Relay)

2N - 3♣ (2N = Spades and Hearts, 3♣ = Relay)

3♦ - 3H (3♦ = 5/5 in the majors, 3♥ = relay

3N - 4♣ (3N = 5=5=3=0, 4♣ = QP ask)

4♦ - 4♠ (4♥ = 9 slam points, 4♠ = DCB)

5♦ - 7♠ (5♦ = 1-2 Controls in ♠ + ♥, 0/3 Controls in Diamonds

 

Alternatively, I could use RKCB in Spades, in which case I'd bid 4S rather than 4C

 

Here, the auction would continue

 

5D - 5H (5D = 2 Keycards no queen, 5H = CAB in Hearts)

5N - 6C (5N = AK or Q in Hearts, 6C = CAB in Diamonds)

6N - 7S (6N = AKQ in Diamonds)

I really don't like this auction for shape resolution. I'd just show my shape with opener's hand because:

- the chance is real that partner shows a balanced hand after which you can't reverse relays anymore.

- you have ♦AKQ which will require only 1 scan to eliminate this suit completely. After that you only have 2 suits left to scan.

- you have a void, which makes denial cuebidding very poor (can't calculate the QP's in ♣, which might make other suits dubious), and afaik you don't have exclusion blackwood available. On this hand it doesn't matter because you have all keycards, but after 1♣-1♦-1NT you're screwed when you'd appear to miss 1 or 2 keycards.

 

This is the first time I see reversed relays in action after 1♣-1♦-1♥-something (not 1NT). I've seen them in the old scheme, used them a couple of times, but it doesn't make much sense to do it here with a minimum hand. Usually opener without extras starts showing shape immediately, and this hand is no exception imo. So reversed relays should show 12+ QP's in this case.

[hrothgar]

I hope you will test Parity Cue Bidding along with DCB and spiral scans. I'm actually not very sure how DCB and spiral scans are different, but I've the impression that with spiral scans the captain hand skips certain steps so as not to ask for cards he holds.

 

I'll be posting the hands. If you're interesting in parity cue bids, please feel free to participate.

(Personally, I don't know the method so I can't really bid them using PCBs)

[straube]

I'll be posting the hands. If you're interesting in parity cue bids, please feel free to participate.

(Personally, I don't know the method so I can't really bid them using PCBs)

 

ok, I'm in for PCBs unless awm would like to do it. We learned it from him.

[blackshoe]

I hope you will test Parity Cue Bidding along with DCB and spiral scans. I'm actually not very sure how DCB and spiral scans are different, but I've the impression that with spiral scans the captain hand skips certain steps so as not to ask for cards he holds.

He can do that, yes. More to the point, if he does do that, he has affirmed that either he holds those cards or does not care about them.

[benlessard]

What is the order of suits for the RKC ask? Is it by the relative length of suits with some tie breaker for equal length suits?

Yes when its equal its HSCD. 1444 = the order is H,C,D. There is some case where opener has showned or denied 3 card support in the first suit. So if a 5521 & i know partner got 3S = S before H if he denied 3S its H before S. Sometimes we get a preference, ex show S+H and get a H preference, if shapes is 54,55,65, its going to be H before spades. 64 and 74 will be S before H. (but to check DCB vs scan its irrelevant... ill just mentionned it when ive lost a step to gloat on how good my general system is :) )

 

There is an improvement on spiral scan I want to try... S is trump

 

we are in 4C

 

4D= 1st ask

4H= 2nd ask

4S= to play

4Nt =4th ask !! (not the 3rd)

 

if you want to do the 3rd ask you bid 4H..even if you dont care about the 2nd card.

partner will...

 

return to 4S without 2nd over wich 4Nt is asking for 3rd.

bid 4nt with 2nd but not 3rd card

bid 5C with 2nd and 3rd but not 4th etc. So you lose no space whatsoever. The only drawback is really small.. sometimes partner bypassed the K of H and you have it, therefore you know hes got a stiff H and later when hes asking for extras you know that the Q elsewhere is better than the Q of H.

 

Same thing if H is trump and we are in 4C

 

4D... 1st ask

4H to play

4S = 3rd ask !! (not 2nd ask)

 

if i want for the 2nd ask I bid 4D even if Ive got no interest in the 1st card. partner will bid 4H and ill bid 4S asking for 2nd card.

 

-----------------------------

 

The other thing I want to check is asking for Aces not keycards. After Ace ask ill do KQ of trumps (instead of a Qtrump).. responses will be

 

0 or 2

1 without the next card

1, +1

1, +2

etc.

 

I hope that most of the time im going to have one of the big trump wich mean that my ask is for the KorQ missing. I also hope that if ive got none ill be able to figure 0 from 2 most of the times. If we are missing 1 I wont know if its the K or the Q but i hope it wont cost anything.

 

So ill do both standard RCK with Q trump ask (SSCan 1) and ACES ask with KQ trump parity ask (sscan 2). Ill be curious to check is 14,30,2 is good order when you only ask for Aces.

[hrothgar]

I really don't like this auction for shape resolution. I'd just show my shape with opener's hand because:

- the chance is real that partner shows a balanced hand after which you can't reverse relays anymore.

- you have ♦AKQ which will require only 1 scan to eliminate this suit completely. After that you only have 2 suits left to scan.

- you have a void, which makes denial cuebidding very poor (can't calculate the QP's in ♣, which might make other suits dubious), and afaik you don't have exclusion blackwood available. On this hand it doesn't matter because you have all keycards, but after 1♣-1♦-1NT you're screwed when you'd appear to miss 1 or 2 keycards.

 

This is the first time I see reversed relays in action after 1♣-1♦-1♥-something (not 1NT). I've seen them in the old scheme, used them a couple of times, but it doesn't make much sense to do it here with a minimum hand. Usually opener without extras starts showing shape immediately, and this hand is no exception imo. So reversed relays should show 12+ QP's in this case.

 

Just to clarify in case it isn't clear

 

Using the first relay break (in this case, showing shape over 1♦ rather than asking for shape) is limits hand strength. I've never played that failure to use a relay break changes the expectation for the minimum strength of the hand (for example, I'll ak with some quite weak balanced hands). It might be reasonable to play a style in which the failure to relay break resets the QP if you are later showing shape, however, I hadn't explicitly considered this.

 

The second option to apply a reverse relay occurs after RR has made his first bid showing shape. I use this relay break to show a misfit.

 

If RR has only promised one suit, the relay break shows a sngleton or void in that suit

If RR has shown a two suited patter the relay break shows the other two suits

If RR has show a balanced hand, relay break shows a balanced pattern, wishing to transition to natural bidding and explore stoppers

 

The goal of this relay break is to identify a misfit and be able to bail in NT

 

(I thought that I had posted these schedules before. If not, i can definitely respost them)

 

On this hand, when I initially looked at the 5530 hand, I said to myself "Well, its definitely a minimum but do I really want to show shape at such a high level"? Why don't I ask instead and see what happens. Then, when RR showed a club suit, my reaction was: This has just gotten a lot worse. Odds are that partner has the single suited in clubs. I'm going to relay break to show my singleton / void and (hopefully) slow him down. If partner has the two suiter with clubs and spades, he'll be well positioned to explore slam.

[hrothgar]

I am going to start posting blocks of hands.

 

I'm going to start 5 new threads with what I hope are obvious titles using the bidding code I posted earlier.

[straube]

It might be nice if you also started a thread for participants to describe their bidding methodologies including (after pattern has been shown) what S1, S2, S3, 3N, 4D, etc mean.

 

Something I've wondered is how you would address subjectivity regarding the following....let's say I know partner has 5413 and I can use DCB or RKC. The choice here is subjective and whether I do well depends on which choice I make as well as which RKC bid is assigned for which suit. It would also be tempting to reverse engineer outcomes and say "Well, I'd use RKC here" because it happens to give me the best result.

 

How do we get rid of this bias?

 

I think it would be most useful to only compare S1 continuations. I.e. I would only look at QP asking (my S1) and then see what PCB offers. Someone else might do control asking and then DCB. Etc.

 

Anyway, before you start offering deals, just a suggestion that we know what methodologies we're testing and make sure that a cross-comparison will give us useful results.

[hrothgar]

It might be nice if you also started a thread for participants to describe their bidding methodologies including (after pattern has been shown) what S1, S2, S3, 3N, 4D, etc mean.

 

Something I've wondered is how you would address subjectivity regarding the following....let's say I know partner has 5413 and I can use DCB or RKC. The choice here is subjective and whether I do well depends on which choice I make as well as which RKC bid is assigned for which suit. It would also be tempting to reverse engineer outcomes and say "Well, I'd use RKC here" because it happens to give me the best result.

 

How do we get rid of this bias?

 

I think it would be most useful to only compare S1 continuations. I.e. I would only look at QP asking (my S1) and then see what PCB offers. Someone else might do control asking and then DCB. Etc.

 

Anyway, before you start offering deals, just a suggestion that we know what methodologies we're testing and make sure that a cross-comparison will give us useful results.

 

Dealer's hand is fixed

Relay Responder's shape is fixed

 

If folks start deviation too much in early stages of the auction, its going to be pretty obvious that something is up.

 

In a similar vein, if we bid 50 hands with the same starting conditions, we should assure ourselves a pretty good coverage of the early stages of the auction space.

Here once again, unless folks are employing a mixed bidding strategy (which seems somewhat strange) we'd expect identical decisions at the same point in the bidding tree.

 

(There is a reason what I specified this methodology)

 

(FWIW, I am using the methods that I document in my MOSCITO notes)