man or mouse?

[Fluffy]

Kathryn your 3NT bid was very bad IMO, first of all you have a form of stayman available and should use it with 4cM, and second, you are the one who should try more with 30+ HCP combined.

 

2♣-2x

2NT-3♣

3♦-3♠

3NT-4NT

 

and you easilly reach slam.

[jillybean]

Hi Gonzalo, was my failure to use stayman the real culprit here or is it the lack of the 4N bid? I would usually show a 4 card major but decided here wisely or not, not to show the T965.

 

Your suggested auction looks like smolen but I assume you play it as showing 4 card hearts and slam interest?

[aguahombre]

The Diamond Ace thing is just to add confusion to a simple situation.

 

If Opener shows 22-24, Pard should invite slam. If Opener shows 25-27, Pard should bid slam. If Opener shows 22-24 when he really has 25-27, he will certainly accept Pard's quantitative invitation. That is not some random 8-count up there.

[helene_t]

Your suggested auction looks like smolen but I assume you play it as showing 4 card hearts and slam interest?

If you play Smolen (and, hence, regular Stayman) it would go

 

2♣-2♥

2NT-3♣

3♠-4NT

6NT

 

Apparently Gonzalo plays puppet stayman. This doesn't show slam interest (but of course the 4NT bid does show slam interest :) )

[gwnn]

You can also keep it simple and play something like

 

2C-2D

2H-2S (2NT instead of 2H would have been 22-24 balanced, non-forcing)

2NT=25+ balanced.

 

Then responder assumes opener is 25-27 as that is by far the most likely range. If opener has 28+ he/she will just bid again over most signoffs from partner. It is not pretty but at least you have the 3 level to sort out fits.

 

The same can be done with 2-point ranges of course. But nobody counts points for these big balanced or semi-balanced hands anymore anyway.

[Fluffy]

Actually I don't play puppet stayman, I would use helene's bidding, but I though you did because you mentioned it here http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/61372-man-or-mouse/page__p__739936?do=findComment&comment=739936

 

Failing to use stayman is in general a mistake for me with 4c major, but there are several good players who think otherwise.

 

Concretely if you are playing IMPs and don't plan on going to slam, 3NT is a lot safer than 4♥ when you are over 29 combined, having a weak suit makes it even better to play NT. So your decision not to use stayman is fine as long as you don't plan to go to slam, but that is a mistake IMO, 8 points is a big lot opposite 2♣/

[aguahombre]

Once we found out North was Jilly, the question in the title was resolved :rolleyes: .

[quiddity]

edit - nm.

[jillybean]

Once we found out North was Jilly, the question in the title was resolved :rolleyes: .

lol

 

I've come a full circle.

[jillybean]

So, we were going to change our 2C controls system to Kokish (http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/kokish_relays.html) for the JEC match but got bogged down with the system notes we found. Mike, there's either a lot more been added to it than way back when you learned it or you have given me a very simplified version.

 

The notes we have not only use 2C for 20-21 nt opening but use the 2♥ puppet to 2♠ to allow opener to show a nt, hearts or hearts and minor hand and a 2S puppet to 2N to show a two suited Spade+? hand or spades and then there is a section on how responder breaks the puppet and makes a transfer bid.

I like the ability to show a strong 2-suit hand.

 

We have some work to do here, in the meantime we have ditched controls and are using 2C 2D waiting and cheaper minor, 2nd negative.

[Fluffy]

forget about multi puppets that don't show up ever, just play the basic 2♥ puppet with GF range versusalmost GF range in direct 2NT, when you are comfortable with this you can try the 20-21 switch but I think you shouldn't use it untill you have really tested the basic.

[fromageGB]

Fluffy, not sure what you mean by multi-puppets, but playing 2♦ waiting followed by "puppet" compulsory next step if opener's second bid is 2♥ OR 2♠ (both are puppets) is very easy to do and seems obviously sensible. They do happen a lot (in the context of having a 2♣ open in the first place).

 

I agree that putting the 20 count into the 2♣ ladder is unnecessary unless you have a need to use 2NT for something else, and certainly if you keep the standard 2NT opening of 20/21 and start with 2♣ when balanced 22+ it is simple and you can't go wrong. I guess a downside of including the 20 count is that you would then need a NT ladder of 3 point ranges, rather than 2 point, which makes it less useful opposite a very week hand.

 

A thing to note, if new to this, is that when opener starts with 2♣ then 2♠, he will have a spade suit so the puppet reply of 2NT is not compulsory - you only do this when you do not have prime spade support (which shows it immediately). In contrast of course with 2♣ then 2♥ which forces a compulsory 2♠ as opener may not have hearts at all.

[fromageGB]

Jilly, the link you gave has some dubious content. For example : "

2♣ An opening bid showing strong values.

. . 2♦ Normally a waiting bid or a negative bid. Other responses, per partnership agreement, are not possible.

2♥ This is the Kokish Relay, a puppet for responder to bid an automatic 2 Spades in order that the opener can clarify his holding.

. . 2♠ The puppet bid.

3♣ Opener promises a two-suited holding with Spades and Clubs."

 

To me, that shows a 2-suiter with hearts and clubs. With spades and clubs I bid 2♣ 2♠ 3♣.

And "other responses" are possible. For example, you can do an immediate transfer with a long suit, rather than starting with 2♦

[jillybean]

Jilly, the link you gave has some dubious content. For example : "

2♣ An opening bid showing strong values.

. . 2♦ Normally a waiting bid or a negative bid. Other responses, per partnership agreement, are not possible.

2♥ This is the Kokish Relay, a puppet for responder to bid an automatic 2 Spades in order that the opener can clarify his holding.

. . 2♠ The puppet bid.

3♣ Opener promises a two-suited holding with Spades and Clubs."

 

To me, that shows a 2-suiter with hearts and clubs. With spades and clubs I bid 2♣ 2♠ 3♣.

And "other responses" are possible. For example, you can do an immediate transfer with a long suit, rather than starting with 2♦

Can you read it again, I think it does say the 2♥ puppet to 2♠ followed by 3♣ shows hearts and clubs.

 

2♣ 2♦

2[sp 2N

3♣ shows spades and clubs

[mikeh]

So, we were going to change our 2C controls system to Kokish (http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/kokish_relays.html) for the JEC match but got bogged down with the system notes we found. Mike, there's either a lot more been added to it than way back when you learned it or you have given me a very simplified version.

<snipped>

 

We have some work to do here, in the meantime we have ditched controls and are using 2C 2D waiting and cheaper minor, 2nd negative.

I suspect both factors at play, with the main one being that Kokish LOVES complexity. I strongly advise against attempting to play most of what he suggests because of that factor. He is very thoughtful, but much of what he suggests is for very dedicated, and already expert, partnerships, as I recall. My coaching with him was a long time ago and I doubt that he has simplified things much. I was in a very serious partnership at the time, with arguably the most complex methods ever played in Canada to that date, and much of what he told us was too esoteric even for us :D

 

I do like switching clubs and hearts after 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠: now 3♣ shows the heart one-suiter, and 3♥ shows hearts and clubs...this allows responder to bid a forcing 3♥ over 3♣, while over a natural 3♥, responder, whose shape is virtually unlimited, can't easily confirm hearts while establishing a force.

 

Btw, you probably already know, but I happen to think that cheaper minor 2nd negative is a woeful approach...I think I'd rather play controls, and I don't like control showing responses at all :P

[fromageGB]

Can you read it again, I think it does say the 2♥ puppet to 2♠ followed by 3♣ does show hearts and clubs.

I'm glad we agree. But the part I quoted was done by cut and paste (adding the coloured symbols afterwards) and not touching the words "Spades and Clubs". It is definitely a typo in the bridgeguys site.

[jillybean]

Ok, I will work on Kokish so we can ditch the 2nd negative responses before we get a chance to use it :)

 

I think we can handle the 2 puppets and I do like the switch for hearts+clubs, and hearts.

[jillybean]

I'm glad we agree. But the part I quoted was done by cut and paste (adding the coloured symbols afterwards) and not touching the words "Spades and Clubs". It is definitely a typo in the bridgeguys site.

You're right :) I didn't read far enough, the error is later in the text under

 

Kokish Relay Bidding Example for Unbalanced Holdings

[jillybean]

What have I missed?

 

Kokish for balanced hands:

 

2C 2D

2N (22-23)

 

2C 2D

2H 2S (puppet)

2N (24-25)

 

2C 2D

3N (26-27)

 

2C 2D

2H 2S (puppet)

3N (28-29)

 

Kokish showing major, or 2 suited M+m, S+H

 

2C 2D

2H 2S (puppet)

3C (hearts) 3H (hearts+clubs) 3D (hearts+diamonds)

 

 

2C 2D

2S 2N (puppet) note responder can raise spades with spade support

3S (spades) 3C (spades+clubs) 3D (spades+diamonds) 3H (spades+hearts)

[aguahombre]

What you will not miss is the best part....CHO getting in the way before you can launch your sequence.

[jillybean]

:P pesky opponents

 

How do you handle single suit minor hands...

 

2C 2D

3C/3D 22-23

4C/4D 24-25 (self sufficient suit) and so on?

[aguahombre]

:P pesky opponents

 

How do you handle single suit minor hands...

 

2C 2D

3C/3D 22-23

4C/4D 24-25 (self sufficient suit) and so on?

The pesky opponent I referred to was the Center Hand Opponent.

 

As for the minor single-suiters, I think it might be best to just bid the one you have at the 3-level to set trump, and let a control showing/asking mechanism take over. Exact point count will probably not be of concern.

[jillybean]

 

As for the minor single-suiters, I think it might be best to just bid the one you have at the 3-level to set trump, and let a control showing/asking mechanism take over. Exact point count will probably not be of concern.

Unless partner is bust and opener has a 24+ count

[aguahombre]

Which brings us all the way back to what a 2C opening should look like with a minor one-suiter. Our choice is ten tricks opposite a dog, but on occasion we do it with 9 and pray for something favorable to be over there.

[fromageGB]

The summary post of #44 is how I played it when I used the unspecified (waiting) 2♦ response, but without the 3♣/3♥ inversion. I guess you don't need to do the same thing with spades and a minor, because a hand with decent spade support will show it immediately instead of bidding 2NT.

 

When opener has a minor, I play it the same as aguahombre, expected to be a 10 trick hand, but may be 9.5! More commonly 10 assuming responder has a 3 card support. How responder continues is debatable. You probably need to have opener's 3m (with all strengths) as forcing, with responses showing whether a fit or not, and whether controls or not, to allow opener to bid 4m+1 as kickback ace ask or 4m as signoff. This is the simple approach, the alternative is to just bid controls and do it all with cue bidding.

 

This then conflicts with the bridgeguys method of responder transferring on the SECOND bid (having bid 2♦ initially) when responder has a 6 or 7 card suit. My preference is to bid a transfer at the first bid, 3♦ for hearts.

 

What is more difficult is when opener has shown a major and a minor, say 2♠ then 3♦. Now you want to choose either (you may not have good spade support, eg xxx, and were hoping for a better second suit, but still prefer spades to diamonds) as well as indicating strength/controls. You don't want to bid 4♦ or 3♠ with a control, as that could be a sign-off. Needs discussion and probably artificiality. (This is one reason for my preference for 2♦ negative and 2♥ positive.)

 

Incidentally, you have the same problem with the 3♣/3♥ inversion. After 2♥ 3♥ you want to bid 4♣ as a sign-off, and 4♣ as preference with control(s)!