man or mouse?

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak65hakjdk6cak94&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2cp2hp2np3np?]133|200[/hv]

 

Playing controls over 2C, 2♥ shows ♦A

[Phil]

I suppose I owe partner 4N but this is reason #62 why I hate controls. Knowledge of the ♦A early is so HUGE....GL.

[ArtK78]

Where am I going?

 

Sure, if partner has Qxxx or better in clubs (in addition to his ♦A) we could make 6♣ (maybe even 7), But if he doesn't I might be going past the last making contract if I bid more.

 

Besides, we are in uncharted territory here. Does anyone know what a bid over 3NT (other than 4NT) would show? SInce we were in a game forcing auction after partner's 2♥ bid, 2NT was forcing. But I only have a little more than a minimum for this sequence. 4NT here would show more. 4♣?

[jillybean]

I suppose I owe partner 4N but this is reason #62 why I hate controls. Knowledge of the ♦A early is so HUGE....GL.

Hi Phil, do your methods over 2C help here? Playing standard we are in the same boat, 2C 2D 2N 3N

[ArtK78]

Hi Phil, do your methods over 2C help here? Playing standard we are in the same boat, 2C 2D 2N 3N

Except that if 2♦ is negative or waiting, the 2NT bid is limited. So you have less reason to go searching for a slam.

 

Besides, there is a big difference between knowing that partner has enough to bid 3NT over 2NT than knowing that partner has the ♦A.

[PhilKing]

What on earth would possess anyone to even think of moving here?

[TylerE]

Pass for me. If partner has much besides the ace they probably should have bid something besides 3N...so i'll assume that they don't.

[helene_t]

I have enough to accept a quantitative invite but barely more than that. That means that I don't have enough to make a quanti myself: I partner wanted to be in slam opposite this he could have bid 4NT.

[mikeh]

Run, don't walk, to the nearest booth where they offer better bidding methods!

 

Look at your dilemma. Partner has the diamond Ace. Great. You now have 8 certain tricks. Yes, you are heavy favourite to make 9 or more, but xxx xxx Axxx xxx is bid precisely as your auction has gone to date, so you aren't even 100% to make game, and you are left wondering whether you are in the slam zone, as you would be opposite xx xxx Axxx QJ10x.

 

Was the 2N systemic? Could you have bid 3N to show, say, a range that includes 25?

 

I really don't like control responses, since I think they focus on the wrong issue this early in an auction. I prefer methods that let us get out of the way of opener unless we have some very specific and useful information to give him re a good suit/hand.

 

Wouldn't you love to be playing 2♦ positive or even 2♦ waiting, such that you could have bid 2♥ kokish and then bid 2N over his forced 2♠, showing 24-25? You'd then leave the driving to partner.

 

As it is, I think you have to pass. Maybe you've missed an iffy slam. Most hands that make slam really good could venture something more than 3N over your 2N. On those that offer a good slam anyway, that's part of the cost of playing a poor method. When your own methods fix your, or when the opps have fixed you, good advice is to 'stay fixed', rather than start making aggressive gambles in the hope that partner's hand will justify it.

 

Partners are put on the opposite side of the table in order to disappoint us :D

 

This was a long-winded way of saying: Pass seems clear, even tho we all know that once in a while bidding would work.

[gszes]

assuming over 2n u had a 3s available for p to issue a mild slam try with a long

minor you have nothing further to think about. The best that should happen with\

with current bidding is a 5050 slam hardly worth risking our game bonus since

even that is highly unlikely. Trust your partner you bid your hand (a slight underbid)

and even though you are control rich slam still seems far off over any normal 3n by

partner

[billw55]

Agree other methods would be better. In my simple system, this goes 2♣-2♦(gf)-3NT(25-27 balanced) and now responder just places the contract.

 

On the actual auction, if I assume that 2NT included 25 balanced, then partner has already placed the contract and no reason to go on. If 2NT is murky, then I don't know what to do.

 

Side note, it would be funny if 4 aces and kings is all the tricks available and even 3NT is down one.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak65hakjdk6cak94&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2cp2hp2np3np?]133|200| Playing controls over 2C, 2♥ shows ♦A [/hv]

IMO Pass = 10, 4♣ = 9, 4N = 8.

Partner's lack of interest in the majors strongly tempts you to bid but Hamman tells you that partner won't ever have ♠ x x ♥ x x ♦ A x x x ♣ x x x x x

[Free]

Pass, it's not like we have that much extras and for all we know we don't even have a fit.

 

I beg you to stop playing controls, for your own sake!

[ArtK78]

Personally, I have had a lot of good results with control showing responses to 2♣ openings. But they work better with unbalanced opening 2♣ bids than with balanced ones.

 

You are rarely worse off. For instance, Jilly rightfully points out that responder is not in a different position after the 2 control response and the 2NT rebid by opener than he would have been after a 2♦ response (waiting) and a 2NT rebid (assuming that 2NT is forcing). Only you have a suspicion that you might belong in a higher level contract. Even if you could have shown that you have 25 HCP you probably would not be much better placed. Responder knows that you might have this much, but just signed off in 3NT. So it is unlikely that responder has as much as 8 HCP.

 

I have often thought that the criticism of control showing responses was overblown. Perhaps by players who have never used them.

[ArtK78]

IMO Pass = 10, 4♣ = 9, 4N = 8.

Partner's lack of interest in the majors strongly tempts you to bid but Hamman tells you that partner won't ever have ♠ x x ♥ x x ♦ A x x x ♣ x x x x x

 

How about xx xxx AJxx Qxxx? Not a terrible club slam.

[mikeh]

Personally, I have had a lot of good results with control showing responses to 2♣ openings. But they work better with unbalanced opening 2♣ bids than with balanced ones.

 

You are rarely worse off. For instance, Jilly rightfully points out that responder is not in a different position after the 2 control response and the 2NT rebid by opener than he would have been after a 2♦ response (waiting) and a 2NT rebid (assuming that 2NT is forcing). Only you have a suspicion that you might belong in a higher level contract. Even if you could have shown that you have 25 HCP you probably would not be much better placed. Responder knows that you might have this much, but just signed off in 3NT. So it is unlikely that responder has as much as 8 HCP.

 

I have often thought that the criticism of control showing responses was overblown. Perhaps by players who have never used them.

ummm.....wouldn't we feel a LOT more comfortable if we knew that partner was playing us for a balanced 25-26 count and chose 3N? Rather than, as here, responder knows only that we have 22+?

 

I mean, I think pass is the correct call in any event, but I suspect that one of two things happened: the big hand bid on, and that was wrong, or it didn't, and partner suggested it ought to have. In either event, the best result was presumably not obtained and I suspect that had opener been able to describe her hand, it would have.

 

The fact that you say that control responses work best opposite unbalanced hands is revealing. I assume you have no special way of letting responder know your hand-type :D Strong balanced hands, in my experience, are more common than unbalanced 2♣ openings, so this admission seems to be significant. In addition, the 'some of my best friends are...' sort of argument (I have had lots of good results) is irrelevant. Any method that is not utterly insane will give one good results. The question is whether it gives you more good results, compared to other methods, than it does bad. Most good pairs generally get good results from any 2♣ opening!

 

I toyed with control responses, and played them for a short time, but early on got into situations in which we were struggling with degree of fit and overall strength, analogous to the issues posed by the OP here.

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak65hakjdk6cak94&w=sq72h743d832cq653&n=st8ht965daqj4cj82&e=sj943hq82dt975ct7&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2cp2hp2np3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

 

So we missed slam in any contract other than spades. I'm north, partners 2N can include 25 hcp hands but I am not confident in bidding on here. What would I bid, we haven't discussed further bids by responder over 2N other than puppet.

 

I am a "C player" playing mostly with experienced players who bring their own preferences and I am usually happy to play their methods.

Other than '2D waiting, 2H bust' I have not played any other methods over 2C. I almost threw this control showing over 2C out after

St Luis where I felt we were shackled after the 2C 2x response but decided to give it another try.

 

Maybe it's time to look at Kokish :)

[mike777]

cant south rebid 3nt rather than 2nt?

[jillybean]

Run, don't walk, to the nearest booth where they offer better bidding methods!

cute :) :(

 

Wouldn't you love to be playing 2♦ positive or even 2♦ waiting, such that you could have bid 2♥ kokish and then bid 2N over his forced 2♠, showing 24-25? You'd then leave the driving to partner.

Can I confirm, this 2♥ is the 'Kokish relay' which makes 2C our only forcing opening and 2N a 'gambling 2N' opening?

[TylerE]

Not at all. It doesn't change your 2N _opening_ at all, just changes opener's NT rebids after a 2♣ opening.

 

In vanilla-ish Kokish:

 

2♣-2♦-2NT = 22-24

2♣-2♦-2♥ = KOKISH (25+ Balanced or 22+ 5+ ♥)

--2♠ - FORCED

----2NT = 25-27

----3x = ♥ + x

----3N = 28-30

----4N = 31-33 or something

 

Basically the idea is that opener should never be JUMPING over 2♦ to show and a balanced hand, because, as this hand so clearly demonstrates, 3N is a real auction killer if you're possibly stopping there.

[mikeh]

cute :) :(

 

 

Can I confirm, this 2♥ is the 'Kokish relay' which makes 2C our only forcing opening and 2N a 'gambling 2N' opening?

No, you cannot :D

 

I assume a 20-21 2N opening bid. The exact range is unimportant other than for adjusting the higher ranges to be differentiated after opening 2♣.

 

Thus a minimum 2♣ opening, on a balanced hand, is 22.

 

As with 1N and 2N openings, most players believe that it is best to play a narrow range. While 3 point ranges such as 15-17 for 1N are common, most 2N bids have a 2 point range, tho many fudge by 'half a point'.

 

Kokish as I learned it and play it separates opener's hands into 2 point ranges: 22-23, 24-25, 26-27, 28-29, 30+

 

We assume a 2♦ waiting response, positive or unspecified is irrelevant.

 

2♥ is either hearts or a koskish range.

 

If we go through 2♥ and then bid nt, we show the next range above what a direct notrump bid would have meant

 

2N 22-23

 

2♥ then 2N: 24-25

 

3N" 26-27

 

2♥ then 3N 28-29 and so on.

 

I made a mistake in my earlier post where I suggested we could have shown 25-26: that is true if a 2N showed 20-22, but not if it showed 20-21. In the former case, all of the ranges after 2♣ move up one point, since the weakest we would be would be 23.

[jillybean]

Thanks! It sounds good and not too tough on the memory cells :)

 

Or perhaps not so simple http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/34696-mr-kokish-and-his-relay/

[blackshoe]

Romex uses controls over 2♣, but there's a lot more to it than just that. For one thing, a Romex player would open that hand 2NT, not 2♣.

[the hog]

The method are terrible. So pd has the D A. How many Qs does pd have. I think 4NT is pretty obvious, but I would not play this method if your paid me. (Well, that depends how much, I guess).

[fromageGB]

FWIW, Kokish does not depend on having a 2D waiting (weak or strong). I play 2D negative and 2H positive, and therefore the Kokish 2NT via 2H happens only after a negative. This is where the 2-point ranges are critical, to enable partner to make a game decision. Over a positive you are game forcing anyway, but the NT bids are now 3 point range.

 

After 2D, 2NT = 22/23, 2H then 2NT = 24/25, 3NT = 26/27

After 2H, 2NT = 22-24, 3NT = 25-27.

 

Another aspect of the Kokish relay is to enable opener to show 2-suited hands, and in this light 2NT is also a relay over opener's 2S rebid.