ArcLight Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Ben (Inquiry) made a great suggestion in another folder. > I wonder if we need some auto delay by an unpassed hand over any skip bid. I see this all the time, quick passes vs. huddles. Why not have this feature?(other than the programming effort) It seems that the skip bid warning is rarely used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoob Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 it has been my experience that the skip bid is warning isn't even used properly in f2f bridge. i think it would be a fruitless venture online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I have my doubts too. If we were to do this, it would have to be an option as I strongly suspect the vast majority of our members would hate it. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcLight Posted January 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 >it has been my experience that the skip bid is warning isn't even used properly in f2f bridge. I am fairly new to Bridge, but in 2 of my Bill Root books Mr. Root says one must give the skip bid warning at ACBL matches. Has this fallen in disfavor? I dont see why as it is a way to convey information outside of the bidding process. In Europe and elsewhere, is a skip bid warning used? I was told that some silly woman complained in the ACBL newsletter that giving a skip bid warning was unethical because it could alert an inattentive partner who wasn't paying attention to your bid. That may be true once a year, but I think anyone who doesn't pay attention to the bidding can't be any good. How does one deal with conveying UI on line? Just ignore it? Thats a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 I have my doubts too. If we were to do this, it would have to be an option as I strongly suspect the vast majority of our members would hate it. Well I for one would hate to have a mandatory 10 second wait after every "skip" bid. Some are just not worth the trouble... for example... P-P-1N-P-3NT <<<----- I can't imagine the need to make everyone at all tables wait here... My suggestion was only by an unpassed hand... have a forced 10 second wait. The person can bid when he pleases, but the bid doesn't show up until 10 seconds after the last bid. As slow as my home computer is, I have an enforced 5Sec delay I think anyway on all bids... :-) Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 On line games can be very slow anyway and this measure would exacerbate that situation. To answer Arclight's question - No skip bid warnings are not universal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 i was told that the rules say if you use the skip card, you must always use it and if you don't use it you must never use it... don't know if this is true or not, but i usually don't use it and have had no trouble from ops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 I have my doubts too. If we were to do this, it would have to be an option as I strongly suspect the vast majority of our members would hate it. Well I for one would hate to have a mandatory 10 second wait after every "skip" bid. Some are just not worth the trouble... for example... P-P-1N-P-3NT <<<----- I can't imagine the need to make everyone at all tables wait here... My suggestion was only by an unpassed hand... have a forced 10 second wait. The person can bid when he pleases, but the bid doesn't show up until 10 seconds after the last bid. As slow as my home computer is, I have an enforced 5Sec delay I think anyway on all bids... :-) Ben I have never seen an argument given as to why 10 seconds was chosen for the mandatory delay after skip bids. It has always seemed far too long to me. I would think that practically all problems of this sort (whether and what to bid over jump bids) which can't be solved in 5 seconds can't be solved in 10 seconds either. And the shorter pause would still eliminate the "weasel" defence. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Skip bid warnings are specifically designed for f2f bridge. They make no sense in online bridge because there are much more effective ways of achieving the same in online bridge. One possibility would be to wait at least x seconds after West's call before Noth's and East's call are shown to South and allways show North and East's call simoultaneously. In that case, a delay of 20 seconds could mean either:- North and East both spent 10 seconds (including traffic jam delay) which is normal.- Either North or East spent more (including traffic jam delay). This would rarely convey any useful information to South. However, even this would probably be a bad idea. Note that to be effective such a measure should be used after all calls, not only skip bids, because there's allways a risk that UI would be conveyed in a fast or slow call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearmum Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 it has been my experience that the skip bid is warning isn't even used properly in f2f bridge. i think it would be a fruitless venture online."Skip " bid warnings are not used all over the world either ! :) SO maybe the delay would be meaningless to anyone who doesn't use them in f2f game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42 Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 In Germany you must use the STOP card when you make a skip bid (not when playing with screens because it is not obvious who of the 2 players was responsable for taking time or not). I know many persons who always thought that this card is used to "wake up partner", and not to give next opponent time to think IF he has to think about his next action or stop the bidding for 10 seconds if he has not. A potential unallowed information ( i.e. LHO of the skip-bidder passes very fast -> he has no problem, he has a clearcut pass; or he hesitates and passes -> his partner may find a bid which he would not if there would have been an immediate pass) cannot flaw.In online bridge it is not clear what caused a delay: perhaps the player thought or chatted or left the room for a moment or had telephone or whatever, you cannot see him, while an immediate pass may give an information. So I like the idea of an autodelay, though I also would find it hard to wait when the bidding goes 1NT-pass-3NT :rolleyes: Caren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 1) The skip bid alert is used to prevent , wrong bids from the next player. e.g. 1♦ - 2♥ - 2♦ Happens a lot at f2f Bridge, because one sees the suit and not the level. This can not happen online. 2) Ususally one will ask about the meaning of the bid and rethink ones action.This might cause a UI, but to identify this change of tempo, one would have to check, if the BBO sever has more logins, or some big tourney just ended or if some ISP or line is just busy for a moment. If one wanted to do something here, i would suggest to allways send the last 2 bids together. Same as you get it playing with screens. This way no speed is lost and you never know who of the two caused the delay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 1) The skip bid alert is used to prevent , wrong bids from the next player. e.g. 1♦ - 2♥ - 2♦ Happens a lot at f2f Bridge, because one sees the suit and not the level. Er... no. That is not the purpose of the skip bid alert at all... the purpose is this.... Condition one...3♥ - lighten fast pass versus Condition two...3♥ -- wait---wait--- wait---- anguish wait---- pass As partner of the player who passed over 3♥, which one do you think he has some values on? Which one do you think the 3♥ bid caused him no problem what so ever. Right. The quick pass is "I have nothing to think about over the preempt I have a very bland hand." The second one is, "gosh that darn three heart bid has caused me a lot of problems... I want to bid soemthing should I double? Do I risk 3NT? What if I bid 4clubs, would that be too high.. darn, I don't know what to do, maybe if I pass partner will do something smart". Ok, now as the partner of the hesitant passer it is perfectly safe to balance back in with 9 pts... but as partner of the lightening fast passer, balancing with even 13 is probably too dangerous. The skip bid enforces a delay on the next bidder.. and he is not suppose to drum his fingers on the table or watch the clock waiting to pass... (of course online we can't see what he is doing).. so that rather he has a problem or easy pass there is no way to draw an inference and it removes ethical issues from the reopening position... since no unathorized information could possibly be given by taken the mandatory delay. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Interesting that you quote 1) when 2) is about UI's . How do you recognise Condition two, from Condition 3:What is in my pickup partners profile?How long does it take me to type my private question to RHO and how long does my RHO need to type the answer .... By the way, your condition one and two can be applied to any bid of the opponents, so a delay should we with every bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 On line games can be very slow anyway and this measure would exacerbate that situation. To answer Arclight's question - No skip bid warnings are not universal.exacerbatevt -bat.ed ; -bat.ing [L exacerbatus, pp. of exacerbare, fr. ex- + acerbus harsh, bitter, fr. acer sharp--more at edge] (1660): to make more violent, bitter, or severe <the proposed shutdown ... would ~ unemployment problems --Science> -- ex.ac.er.ba.tion n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Interesting that you quote 1) when 2) is about UI's . How do you recognise Condition two, from Condition 3:What is in my pickup partners profile?How long does it take me to type my private question to RHO and how long does my RHO need to type the answer .... By the way, your condition one and two can be applied to any bid of the opponents, so a delay should we with every bid. I will quote orange book for you (you can check ACBL etc if you like).. here is the section on skip bids... PROCEDURE---7.1 "Stop" or "Skip" Bids (Law 73A2)7.1.1 Before making a jump bid (ie a bid at a higher level than the minimum required) you should say "stop" or "skip bid", to give the next player time to reflect.7.1.2 Just as when passing you can use "Pass" or "No Bid" but should not change from one to the other during a session, so you should be consistent in the use of "stop" or "skip bid". (Law 74C1)7.1.3 After a jump bid, the next player must pause for about ten seconds before calling. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. I don't care what you do on line during that 10 seconds... who knows you maybe asking the person who bid q uestions (in private) about his preempt style... but you must take 10 seconds or so.. (try not to drag it out to 40)... This is waht the law and the procedure was invented for.. it was never to alert your partner or your opponnents to the fact that you skipped a level.. .it was and remains to enforce a mandatory "PAUSE" as bolded above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) 3♥ - lighten fast pass versus Condition two...3♥ -- wait---wait--- wait---- anguish wait---- pass Ok, now as the partner of the hesitant passer it is perfectly safe to balance back in with 9 pts... but as partner of the lightening fast passer, balancing with even 13 is probably too dangerous. Further gradations: Condition three:3♥ -- wait---wait--- wait--- double - pass Condition four:3♥ - immediate X - pass Partner has four spades, a doubleton diamond, and a borderline 8-count. What do you want to bet me that she'll bid 4♠ with the first hand and 3♠ with the second? Frankly, This page explains better than I ever could. There's an advantage to always pausing after skip bids - minimizing the chance (or making much mover obvious the effect) of UI from LHO transmitted to jump-bidder. Because the smaller a problem you have with your call, the higher the likelihood that LHO will have one...Of course, most opponents (f2f, at least) will stare at you with a "what are you doing?" look on their face for the 10ish seconds, and immediately on your pass, *then* go into the tank :-(. Back ontopic, though - I agree 10 second enforced pause over every skip bid is too long for casual online bridge, but random 3-5 seconds before the call appears to the rest of the world... How to deal with the "I passed immediately, and *she* *tanked*" (the 3-5 second auto-pause, plus maybe 1-2 seconds to make the call) situation is an exercise for the reader. Michael. Edited January 14, 2005 by mycroft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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