Diagnosing the problem on bad result

[bd71]

[hv=pc=n&s=skj9432hqjt2dcj96&w=s7h764dq9764ckt73&n=saqt65hk3djt82c52&e=s8ha985dak53caq84&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=pp1d1s2d2sd3sp4sdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

4SX didn't work out very well for us (E/W) last night at the club. A cold -790.

 

Appreciate thoughts about the East/West decisions here, although you can throw in criticisms of N/S too to help me think we got "fixed" a bit.

[CamHenry]

I think W should make a preemptive raise to 3♦ at his first turn. Similarly, N probably has enough to bid 4♠ straight off - he's pretty certain partner's short in ♦ and can ruff them early.

 

After E doubles 2♠ for takeout, W can afford to bid 4♣ over the 3♠ from S. E probably then realises there's a lack of minor-suit cards in NS, and can assess the fact that his ♦AK don't look so much like 2 tricks any more. He might well find the profitable 5m sacrifice as well.

 

Some might argue that W should pull the double of 4♠, but that seems like resulting.

 

My suggested auction:

[hv=d=e&v=n&b=2&a=1d1s3d3sd4s5cp5dppdppp]133|100[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

2♦ is a bit limp on the W hand, if you bid 3♦ and partner knows it's preemptive, he'd be less inclined to double. N has partially fixed you by understating his hand looking for a double.

[TylerE]

On this sort of walk the dog auction I would expect at least a ♦singleton, but alost more likely a void in one of the opponents hands. In which case we might well not only not be beating it but might even be eating an overtrick if partners points are say finessing K♠ and random quacks. I'd prefer a preemptive ♦ raise, but I have some sympathy for 2♦. After the X of 2♠ E has more or less told his story, and should leave any X of 4♠ to west.

[Codo]

So, West denied 4 HEarts but showed a diamond fit and still you play the first double as take out? Why should I?

 

Ok, if this is GIBs method, fine, so be it. In this case I have no idea, why West did not take it out....

[neilkaz]

So, West denied 4 HEarts but showed a diamond fit and still you play the first double as take out? Why should I?

 

Ok, if this is GIBs method, fine, so be it. In this case I have no idea, why West did not take it out....

 

While I'd prefer to make a preemptive raise to 3D as west, most of the fault lies with east's final double. I presume that his first X showed extra strength, but now he has no reason to expect to defeat 4♠.

[quiddity]

100% blame to West. I don't agree at all with previous comments about East's double - it looks obvious to me. At this vul East either wants to penalize NS (with his 4 quick tricks and partner's raise) or play 5♦. It makes no sense to allow them to play a red 4♠ undoubled. EW are not in a force so East must double.

 

This is not a "penalty" double; East couldn't even bid notrump at the two-level so how can he have a trump stack? This is an "extra values, do something intelligent" double. West has an extra diamond (or even two extra diamonds, he could possibly raise with 3-card support), a good chance of a side-suit fit, a stiff spade, and no sure defensive trick - how can he sit?

[TylerE]

East doesn't have 4 quick tricks on this auction. He should consider himself ahead of the game if one diamond cashes. Saying West could bid 2♦ on 3 is just asinine.

[ggwhiz]

So, West denied 4 HEarts but showed a diamond fit and still you play the first double as take out?

 

3♣ instead of double also shows extras and west is better placed by staring at negative defense. When pard has already denied hearts, show where you live.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=skj9432hqjt2dcj96&w=s7h764dq9764ckt73&n=saqt65hk3djt82c52&e=s8ha985dak53caq84&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=pp1d1s2d2sd3sp4sdppp]399|300| 4SX didn't work out very well for us (E/W) last night at the club. A cold -790. Appreciate thoughts about the East/West decisions here, although you can throw in criticisms of N/S too to help me think we got "fixed" a bit.[/hv]

EW bid fine. Rub of the green :) Swap a North ♦ for a South ♥ and no ATB problem --- at least for EW :)

[FM75]

[hv=pc=n&s=skj9432hqjt2dcj96&w=s7h764dq9764ckt73&n=saqt65hk3djt82c52&e=s8ha985dak53caq84&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=pp1d1s2d2sd3sp4sdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

4SX didn't work out very well for us (E/W) last night at the club. A cold -790.

 

Appreciate thoughts about the East/West decisions here, although you can throw in criticisms of N/S too to help me think we got "fixed" a bit.

Precision with agreements over interference.

 

2♦ 16-19 hcp and any 4441

Does south bid 2♠ over a strong opening? If so, with 0-7 partner bids cheaper of 2 4-card or longer suits. 3♣

 

3♠ by North?, 4♦ partner will have to figure out that I have a singleton spade from bidding and correct to clubs, if necessary.

 

 

After 4♠? pass and let partner decide best fit. - 5♦ maybe doubled and off 3 max. -500 vs -620 (or + 100)

 

At least we don't double, since we know that we have no defense against spades.

[TylerE]

EW bid fine. Rub of the green :) Swap a couple of North's diamonds for a couple of South's ♥s and no ATB problem --- at least for EW :)

 

I don't buy this. Make the NS hands that square and I think they stay ought of game. That's the point of listening to the auction. When opponents seemingly bid the same values two or three times, either A: they're bad or B: their shape is improving. Assuming A: is somewhat dangerous if you don't know for sure, and if you do...

[nige1]

I don't buy this. Make the NS hands that square and I think they stay ought of game. That's the point of listening to the auction. When opponents seemingly bid the same values two or three times, either A: they're bad or B: their shape is improving. Assuming A: is somewhat dangerous if you don't know for sure, and if you do...

North was walking the dog and East stepped in something nasty but, IMO, East's second double just shows extra values and it's more credit to North than blame to East-West.

[quiddity]

East doesn't have 4 quick tricks on this auction. He should consider himself ahead of the game if one diamond cashes. Saying West could bid 2♦ on 3 is just asinine.

 

lol

[MrAce]

So, West denied 4 HEarts but showed a diamond fit and still you play the first double as take out? Why should I?

 

When your pd doubles them, ( which seems penalty in your methods with the excuse that pd denied 4 card hearts, upto you) and opponents keep on raising their own suit after the double, this should be a warning sign that your pd and you maybe in wrong pages about this double. Regardless of who wins the postmortem argument, i think W had all the clue that the doubles by E were a sign of shortness in their suit and extras. It could still be the best place for EW to defend 4♠ doubled if you change some cards from W. Don't forget E doesn't even know yet that they have a 9 card fit.

 

With the hand W held, he had no reason to leave the double imo.

[PhilKing]

I would have bid 3♣ on the East hand.

 

Three reasons:

 

It could be a double fit hand, and our second fit can only be in clubs.

 

My hand is worth a try, and this is our cheapest meaningful manoeuvre.

 

Double of 2♠ does not show this hand for me. I would have a good hand with ♠KQJT. With a "take-out double" you can, of all things, make a natural bid.

[ahydra]

Although we've got a fit, I think X is a better description of East's hand than 3C - the reason being that he has lots of high-card strength but little shape. 3C should be 5-4 at least, if not 6-4 or 5-5, and might be based on shape rather than high-cards, whereas X shows high-card values for sure.

 

I do agree West should raise to 3D not 2D, then East might evaluate his AK as not being worth two tricks - indeed there's a chance they won't take any tricks, as here. Additionally it allows East to visualise a very-likely-making 4S and very-very-cheap 5D sac.

 

I would bid (starting from East):

 

1D 1S 3D 4S

5D p p X

out

 

ahydra

[quiddity]

Double of 2♠ does not show this hand for me. I would have a good hand with ♠KQJT. With a "take-out double" you can, of all things, make a natural bid.

 

Is it standard to play this as a penalty double? I'm pretty sure most people play values/takeout at this level when both sides have a fit.

I prefer to be able to double with extras and a balanced shape like 2443 and have the 3♣ bid show real clubs.

[MrAce]

I would hav enever imagined pd with only 4-4 minors had he bid 3♣ tbh. On this hand it may work out but when E bids 3♣ he doesn;t even know at which level teh auction will come back to him. I would prefer using 3♣ bid by E here with much less values but shapely hand. It maybe very important for pd to do the right thing if S bids 4♠. I don't think he will often make right decisions if we can be 4-4 or more shapely for the same bid. Ototh i can't even think of sparing double for penalties when they bid and raise at 2 level.

[gszes]

lets picture a minimum 2d bid from p something like xxx xx Qxxxx Kxx

hard to imagine a worse 2d bid but note that opposite this dreck 5d looks

pretty darn good. Why are we thinking of penalizing 4s when we are

staring at what seems to be a high degree of probability vul game???

 

When viewed this way the bids by east seem to make less sense. They

should be more balanced 18-19 hcp type hands which really have no

clear direction xx AQxx AKxx AJx ,

 

This powerhouse is more along the lines of a 3s bid looking to see

if p can bid 3n hoping to collect 5/6 dia 2aces a spade and 1 other

somewhere. For the less adventurous bid 3c and hope that this will

encourage p to appreciate the club king as a precious resource even

if they are minimum and maybe your side can arrive in 5d..............

probably defending 5s x:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[the hog]

When your pd doubles them, ( which seems penalty in your methods with the excuse that pd denied 4 card hearts, upto you) and opponents keep on raising their own suit after the double, this should be a warning sign that your pd and you maybe in wrong pages about this double. Regardless of who wins the postmortem argument, i think W had all the clue that the doubles by E were a sign of shortness in their suit and extras. It could still be the best place for EW to defend 4♠ doubled if you change some cards from W. Don't forget E doesn't even know yet that they have a 9 card fit.

 

With the hand W held, he had no reason to leave the double imo.

 

Pull this double and you lose a decent partner forever. That is not to say that East is a dcent partner on this hand. I agree with Tyler, the last x was poor and East has no reason to think the contract will be defeated. This nonsense talk about "walking the dog" is precisely that. I cannot believe how many players on these fora get sucked in by such childish antics.

[Free]

I think West has a clear 3♦ raise. The final pass by West is dubious imo: partner doubles on power and West has ♣K, on the other hand, East's first Dbl suggests a double fit which might give 4♠ more chance to make.

North probably didn't think much of his ♥K and bid very passively. Imo he's worth at least an invite. He walked the dog very nicely though.

East did fine, he doubled to show extra's and the second Dbl is also ok because he actually expects to defeat 4♠.

 

Note: since we're suggesting other systems, with my favorite partner we open 3♦ in 1st seat (0-7HCP, 5+♦) :D

[MrAce]

Pull this double and you lose a decent partner forever. That is not to say that East is a dcent partner on this hand. I agree with Tyler, the last x was poor and East has no reason to think the contract will be defeated. This nonsense talk about "walking the dog" is precisely that. I cannot believe how many players on these fora get sucked in by such childish antics.

 

I think yours and mine definition of 'decent pd' is way too distanced from each other. The one in your definition doeis not even fall in the group of my "worst players i have ever partnered with" both as bridge logic and manners wise.

 

I can't even believe some of the responses. Does anyone looking at the auction and colors ? KQJT spades and a good hand ? And opponents either asking the explenation of double or not even bothering to ask, one of them bidding 3♠ without being forced, and the other one raising to 4, again without being forced, and they are red !! Really ? And ya all expect something else than what E holds or similar from pd ?

 

Funny part is The Hog expecting me to feel bad for losing this dude ! It ain't gonna happen :P

 

4 tricks needed in East hand to make 2nd double ? Really ? If people needed such requirements for their doubles, opponents would outbid you in each and every single hand. I don't really mind W passing 4♠ dbl, it is a thin decision, but i would never leave my pd for passing the double or i would never leave my pd for making 2nd double.

 

We may or may not fully agree with those decisions but none of them were extremely absurd. But those are the things you have not developed and i suspect you will never Hog, because there are only 2 colors for you in bridge, white and black, and you think it is only you who knows when it is white and when black. Which is pretty sad actually for a lot of reason which i won't get into now.

[Fluffy]

I am not so troubled by getting some -790s when opponents have a 4-0 split and good fitting hand.

 

Havings said that west should bid a preemptive 3♦, this wouldn't change things much as I think East should still double 4♠, but it makes the decision closer and perhaps passing is an option.