precision in pass-out seat

[CSGibson]

[hv=pc=n&s=sat7hk92dk972cqt4&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=ppp]133|200[/hv]

 

So typically I tend to follow the rule of 15 when opening 4th chair, but we're playing precision. We open all 11s, most 10s, and some 9's at the 1 level, and are fairly aggressive about preempting 2M with decent 5 card suits if not 5-3-3-2 when we are 4-9. How should that information impact my behavior in the pass-out seat? Does this become a clear pass against normal opponents? If it makes a difference, the systemic opening on this hand for us would be a 1♦ call that could be as few as 0.

[helene_t]

yes I think it's best to pass this hand under these circumstances.

[Cyberyeti]

If I can't open it 1N, I'm not opening it.

[ArtK78]

An interesting analogy:

 

My regular partner and I play a light-opening system in 1st and 2nd seats nonvulnerable - we open all 10 counts, and we open a 10-12 1NT.

 

As a result, if the bidding is passed around to third or fourth seat when we are nonvul we do not open anything borderline. Furthermore, our preempts in 3rd seat nonvul may contain hands that others would open with a one bid. We know that partner does not have 10 HCP nor does he have any kind of opening preempt (which would be less than 10 - our range for weak 2 bids in 1st & 2nd seats nonvul is 3-9).

 

In your situation, you know that partner does not have any hand that you would open with a limited opening bid, which would include all 11's, many 10's and some 9's, as you put it. So, you should not be opening borderline hands in 4th seat. 3rd seat is a little different, but you can widen the range of your preempts in 3rd seat to include stronger hands.

 

As for the hand presented in the OP, if you know that your partner has less than 11 HCP, the answer to your question may depend more upon your opponents' tendencies than your own. If your opponents are agressive bidders, then it stands to reason that your partner has very close to what you would consider to be an opening bid. In that case, you may want to open the bidding. But, if your opponents are more conservative, then you should probably pass, as partner probably has no more than an 8 count, perhaps a 7 count, and your opponents have a slight edge in power.

[Free]

I'd open 1♦ without even thinking. This is an opening hand with 4 controls, the rest of the HCP are divided pretty much equally, so opening is as much a gamble as passing. But I didn't come to pass out hands, didn't I? ;)

[JLOGIC]

If I can't open it 1N, I'm not opening it.

 

Strange I think the exact opposite. Opening 1D allows you to play in 1M which seems much better to me, I suppose you are more worried about it letting the opps in easily.

 

How should that information impact my behavior in the pass-out seat?

 

You should be more inclined to pass marginal hands out. The rule of 15 is meant to be used on marginal opening hands. This hand is not a marginal opening bid, it is a pretty sound opener at any vul and any position, it is a 12 count with good honors (no jacks) and above average spot cards (two tens and two 9s, all with supporting honors, albeit all in different suits).

 

Do you really think by opening 1D you rate to go minus on avg? That is really pessimistic to me when you clearly have the best hand at the table, even with LHOs upper range being higher than partners. RHO passed in third seat, he is not that much of a concern. And honestly you probably have a card play edge against "normal opponents." Passing it out in those cases when I rate to have more points than them seems like a disaster. Do you open 4333 and 4432 10s or are those the 10s you pass? It is not unlikely partner has something like that and we just have them crushed in HCP and we are passing it out, seems really bad to me.

[gwnn]

I used to say 'all fourth hand opening problems depend on your partner and opponents' but nowadays I do something closer to the much simpler dburn's law: 'always open in fourth hand as if the hand belonged to the opponents, one of them would have opened already!'

[Cyberyeti]

Strange I think the exact opposite. Opening 1D allows you to play in 1M which seems much better to me, I suppose you are more worried about it letting the opps in easily.

Exactly, it lets the opps in with 1M. If I bid 1N, I think I make it more often than not and opps might struggle to come in over it.

[JLOGIC]

How about the rule of 12, open 12 counts in 4th seat :P

 

With 10 or 11 consider other factors. There are probably a few 12 counts that are right to pass in 4th seat but they are probably extremely rare, I don't think I have ever passed one and I play similar opening style to Chris other than the preempting part.

[CSGibson]

Thanks. I did open 4th seat, turned out my partner had the worst possible hand with a crappy 4-3-3-3 5 count, things turned out very poorly after opening in this case, was just judgment checking.

[JLOGIC]

Sounds like one of our opps violated the rule of 12

[CamHenry]

An interesting analogy:

 

My regular partner and I play a light-opening system in 1st and 2nd seats nonvulnerable - we open all 10 counts, and we open a 10-12 1NT.

 

As a result, if the bidding is passed around to third or fourth seat when we are nonvul we do not open anything borderline.

 

I think there's actually an advantage to getting into the auction a lot in 3rd seat. Partner and I play light openings 1/2 NV, including a 9-11 NT. That means the maximum we can hold as a passed hand NV is balanced 8 (or a particularly vile balanced 9, e.g. QJ/QJ/Jxxx/Qxxxx), so opening a 9-15 NT means we won't miss game, we can play pure weak takeouts, and oppo never know if we're playing 7 facing 15 or 2 facing 9 (more-or-less). Sure, we occasionally go for 800 or more on a partscore board, but if oppo have 14 facing 11 you'd be surprised how often we go -100 against -120, or -150 against -400/-600, etc.

 

Caveat is that we play mostly MPs, and frequently in weak-to-middling fields, so I'm not convinced this approach would be as big a winner against expert oppo.