Ruling of the game @ BBO

[arrows]

I have been rudely(at least from the point of my view) replaced in a

tournment game today, and I don't feel I am treated fairly.

 

If the other party involved think it's fair. what they said and what they did

to me is perfectly okey. then I have no problem with it, too.

So I would ask whoever in charge here a favor,

just let this post be here and serve some educational purpose, showing why

I did is wrong and how the game is ruled here at BBO. so that, hopefully

for the benefit of everyone else who playing here.

[arrows]

The following is the log-chat, with my comments in parathesis for what is

going on.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(With a pick-up partner, I played the abalucy tourney)

Chat log of Bridge Base Online session for arrows starting at: Tue Jan

11 16:00:43 2005

 

Calabres->Tournament: Pairs in PD, please match youselves !h

Maaa->Tournament: All ready ? Here we goooooooooooo......................

ABALUCY->Tournament: sort if like the ball dropping at midnite lol

multi: hi

rosaherna: hola P hola op

rosaherna: mi profile P, is posible?

arrows: ok

rosaherna: ty

Maaa->Tournament: Hello all and welcome :-)))

exodus: hi opps:)

Maaa->Tournament: 18bds, 2 per round to be played in !D16min!D

(except round 1)

Maaa->Tournament: MP scoring, SWISS movement

Maaa->Tournament: Good Cards, Good Luck, Please ENJOY :-)

exodus: wdp

multi: typ

(first hand is over)

 

(Now start the 2nd hands My partner open 1C, opps kept silent, I

respond 2NT with

S Jxx H Jxx D Ax C AJTxx. My partner passed.

My RHO then asked me to explain the 2NT bid by clicking the bid and the

explanation box poped up. Since it's a natural bid, I feel no

obliagtion to say anything

about it, I just clicked "OK" button without write anything in it. And

the "No information

available " automatically showed as the explanation. Then my RHO

called director)

 

->arrows: Automated message: Director Maaa is now at the table as

requested by exodus

exodus: hi Maaa

Maaa: please explain your bid

->Maaa: there's nothing to explain

Maaa: there is allways something to explain ... please do it now

 

(Now I write the following message in the explaination box:

FOR JESUS SAKE, I WANNA PLAY 2NT)

 

exodus: I asked for 2NT...arrows doasnt want explain...is he first one

in abalucy?

Maaa: nie pytajcie wiecej

rosaherna: glp

Maaa: why cant you just name your hcp range ?

ABALUCY: hi problem here?

arrows: bridge is a game about tricks, has nothing to do with HCP, for

that matter

 

ABALUCY: arrows - thank you for playing - It is clear you do not

understand or follow FRECT

arrows: they ask me to explain 2NT

arrows: i have nothing to explain

ABALUCY: I will be replacing you from the tourney and you will be

hearing from us regarding your membership

->arrows: Automated message: You have been replaced, and are no

longer playing in this tournament/team game

 

->ABALUCY: this is totally inappropriate

ABALUCY: as was your comment

DragonZ: what's wrong?

->ABALUCY: we will see

->ABALUCY: I did nothing wrong

->ABALUCY: there's nothing to explain for my 2NT bid

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[arrows]

The following is the answers from abuse@bridgebase.com I got regarding this

issue.

 

 

 

Hi Arrows,

 

my questions:

First, Is it considered appropriate to just use "No information available" to

answer a inquiry about a call, which is nothing but natural?

 

Second, Was any of my comments about this whole thing, wrong?

 

 

Actually, part of bridge is that you have to explain your (partner’s) bids when opponents require you to. So when asked to explain your bid, because we use self-alerting in BBO, you need to explain.

 

 

Furthermore, when TD asks you to explain, you are expected to follow her instruction and do so as well.

 

 

So yeah, TD wasn’t wrong, sorry to say that you were.

 

 

BB Abuse

[arrows]

My own opinion (inevitably biased):

 

1. "No information available" means nothing to explain for a natural call.

One should take it as natural, the only assumption that make sense.

 

2. why can't you just name HCP range,

Notice, I didn't give any unsolicited lecture, I was answering this question.

My answer was, and is and will never ever changes:

 

arrows: bridge is a game about tricks, has nothing to do with HCP, for

that matter.

 

3. I am required to answer what does 2NT means, following TD's instruction.

I did answered that question and will remain the same for the future:

 

FOR JESUS SAKE, CAN I JUST WANNA PLAY 2NT??

 

4.

ABALUCY: I will be replacing you from the tourney and you will be

hearing from us regarding your membership

 

No, allow me, please. Thank you but I will never back to play your tourney again

anyway. Enjoy and Take care.

[luke warm]

i have to agree with the others, arrows... if your range for a 2nt response is 10-12, just alert the bid and type '10-12' in the box... some play it higher, but whatever the range is the ops have a right to know... now while it may be true that your partner didn't know, she obviously had some idea of the range else she wouldn't have passed

 

the last point abuse made is also correct.. once the td asked you to explain, you should do so... you had an obligation to do so in any event, but her directions left no room for argument

[MickyB]

You have to explain agreements, whether explicit - you have discussed it; Or implicit - you have not discussed it, but you know the meaning that your opps won't - eg you are playing against someone new to BBO who knows nothing about SAYC.

 

Were you confident that your partner would take 2NT as 10/11-12? Why?

 

If you were just guessing, you should say 'no agreement'. If you had an agreement, the bid had come up before, or you had (for example) agreed Acol as a basic system, then you should describe it as a balanced invite (if your agreement is not based on HCP then you need not mention them). Some people use 'no explanation available' to mean natural, some to mean no agreement, making the use of the term unacceptable. Your opponent was perfectly entitled to call the TD, and your attitude afterwards got you thrown out IMO.

 

Disappointingly, both abuse@ and the director in question do nothing to refute the widely held belief that you should always describe your hand, not just your agreements.

[hrothgar]

From my perspective, this case is interesting for two reasons:

 

1. This incident occured in an Abalucy tournament. I am a firm believer that private clubs should be accorded large amounts of discretionary authority regarding their regulatory structure. From my perspective, Abalucy does a pretty good job defining and apply a consistent set of regulations. From my perspective, I don't think that its appropriate to ask Abuse to interfere with the internal workings of a private club.

 

I'll note in passing that while Abalucy has a consistent regulatory structure, this doesn't necessarily equate to a pleasant playing environment ...

 

2. You were clearly playing in a pickup partnership with very limited opportunity to establish any firm partnership agreements. This information was readily apparant to anyone at the table. Your 2NT rebid was a natural bid. From my perspective, you are required to provide the opponents with an explanation of your partnership agreements. You are not required to teach them bidding and you are not required to describe your hand to them.

 

There are far too many people on BBO who start badgering the opponents regarding their bidding agreements. This often creates a no-win scenario for the players being interogated, particularly when one party is using a plastic evaluation scheme and the other is a Walrus...

[MickyB]

2. You were clearly playing in a pickup partnership

Sorry, missed that. Unless it is on your partner's profile, to describe your bid as '10-12 bal' or similar is misinformation; You have no agreement, so that is what you should say.

[arrows]

I barely write english, and I learn bridge from the Rueful Rabbit and Gavin

the Goose, who are living in the virgin forest in Africa.

 

We don't play any SAYC and have no idea what the heck HCP is.

and Because of that, I am a criminal.

[epeeist]

Responding first to your comment after the TD was called, some people especially Christians would understandably be offended by your language. You don't have to agree, but for politeness' sake one should avoid such language. Aside from that, your comment might seem rude, including the fact it was entirely capitalized, which is often interpreted as analogous to shouting.

 

As for the call to the TD, I've been involved (on the other side, as the complainer in a pay tournament) with someone who gave no explanation, and if they had merely stated "no agreed meaning" or "new partner" or something, it would have given me no extra information, and avoided the need for a call. Whenever I get a "no information available" response, or a sarcastic "what do you think" response I get suspicious and annoyed, and I'm sure others do also. Or, if you expected your partner to understand your 2NT bid was natural, or to play, you could have typed "natural" or something (what your partner would know). Plus, as some have noted, you were playing in a tournament/club with enhanced disclosure rules. Your opponents probably wanted to know whether the 2NT was an agreed-upon convention, and I think they were entitled to know that it wasn't.

[spwdo]

hi,

 

 

I think when u are asked what a bid means, just tell them what it means to you, when u bid it, you at least hoping you and your partner give same meaning to a bid, even with a pick up partner, what possible harm can it do to you?

 

As for the "no information avaible ", it doesnt make me happy when i see it , i ask opps then to click again the bid, when its clicked away again you go out :P at this point i already said a bid needs to be explained when asked, not discribe your hand but the info you are passing or trying to pass to your partner.

 

As for your capps question , i think it was out of line, its not something one can do in a ZT tourney, if others allow this , well too bad, maybe thats why abuse has so much work?

 

M

[inquiry]

As a rule we woud not allow the "attack" on the directors or the club to stand as posted in in this thread. but arrorws, you did no harm to them with your post, as you come across as the one totally in the wrong. The response of the director and club manager were totally approporiate.

 

As others have suggested, you don't have to say, "I hold no foiur card major, and have a blanced hand with exactly 11 hcp." That is you don't have to describe your hand. You are obligated to describe your agreement. Your agreement is not "what do you think it means", nor does " there's nothing to explain" meet your requirement to explain your methods fully to your opponents when asked.

 

As others have suggest, an appropriate answer could be "We have no partnership agreement"... if your partner has to guess what your bid means, so do your opponents. But bridge is not a game where one hides behind language or the like. You are required to explain your agreement (again we have no agreement is acceptable... but " bridge is a game about tricks, has nothing to do with HCP, for

that matter" is not only not acceptable, but shows a total lack of the understanding of your obligations.

 

Sorry, you where boorish, violated the rules, and got treated the way anyone else would have been if they acted as you did in abalucy event or in one of mine for that matter. I hope you can take the information in the spirit it was given, as an opportunity to learn what is expected when questions are asked. It was your answers to the questions that were rude and not consistent with the rules of bridge. A simple, "no agreement" and there would have been no problems.

 

Ben

[arrows]

Thanks for your inputs,

 

The only thing I learned so far is that "No agreement"

is different from "No information available". Fat one.

 

You know what, if i just say "No agreement", I was kicking out too.

That guy kicked me out in a ACBL BBO tourney once, when I did nothing

wrong and opps was trying to make an issue, and he/she ask I to

apologize for nothing, I refused.

 

Here, I was asked to say how many HCP I had.

and unfortunately , I don't know how to count that, and have no

interest to learn how, so I am out.

[Chamaco]

One question to people who know well the rules:

 

does one always have to give "hcp" answers ?

 

I mean, the auction 1X:3NT by many people means just "I want to play 3NT", and not "I have xxx hcp": the "I want to play 3NT" maycome from far less than 12-13 hcp, if there are tricks.

 

Could not this apply to the 2NT bid ? It seems to me "arrows" reply to the TD intended that: he said "Bridge is a game of tricks", implying that he does not necessarily have hcp, but could be a long suit.

 

What am I missing ? :P

[helene_t]

You're right, Chamaco, but the opps apparently wanted to know something about the strength of Arrow's hand. Instead of 11-12 HCPs the answer could have been "invitational" or "non-forcing" or something like that.

[BurnKryten]

I don't think high card points is required either - but an indication of your agreements is still necessary. For example, you could say "Natural, non-forcing", "Natural, invitational", or perhaps "Natural, forcing", or any number of descriptions that don't indicate points.

 

If you have no agreement and partner will have to guess, then you can say "No agreement" or "2NT is undiscussed with this partner".

 

This doesn't seem difficult to me - leaving it as "No Information Available" and forcing the opponents to guess what you mean is contrary to the Laws of Bridge.

[Chamaco]

You're right, Chamaco, but the opps apparently wanted to know something about the strength of Arrow's hand. Instead of 11-12 HCPs the answer could have been "invitational" or "non-forcing" or something like that.

 

TY Helene, that answers my question: basically you agree that simply saying "invitational", without specifying hcp range, is a correct answer.

 

Then perhaps "answers" problem was his lack of knowledge of english: we are talking of nuances here, and to use nuances you have to master the language.

 

In my opinion, when he said to the TD "Bridge is a game of tricks", that's what he meant, but I am only assuming hypotheses.

[Gerben47]

You can also respond: Balanced and invitational to game.

You don't have to nail it down to HCP, Zar points, losers or whatever.

 

Arrows: Although you might be familiar with your system, others may not. IIRC some systems use the given 2NT bid as GF and balanced (I guess if you hold a balanced invitational hand you have to make up 1♦ even if you don't have them). Opponents might want to know if you bid 2NT to play or forcing.

[Chamaco]

You can also respond: Balanced and invitational to game.

Does not have to be balanced to be inv

[Free]

I barely write english, and I learn bridge from the Rueful Rabbit and Gavin

the Goose, who are living in the virgin forest in Africa.

 

We don't play any SAYC and have no idea what the heck HCP is.

and Because of that, I am a criminal.

I think it would be for your own best to learn something about HCP, since most players use it to evaluate their hands, but also in defense to count the hands... It might help to avoid discussions about HCP. HCP =

Ace = 4

King = 3

Queen = 2

Jack = 1

Very simple method, not representative for your real strength, and 40HCP in the deck (can be useful in defense).

 

As for your discussion: I think I agree with the rest here, you were wrong. I've learned it's best to avoid any kind of trouble here, do a little normal (what the rest would do) and keep the peace, since TD's can do almost whatever they want.

If people ask for information about a bid, just give it. "No information available" also pisses me off, "natural" is at least a response to the question.

Also, it's not wise to give lectures to your opponents, if they ask a question you respond. If they ask your HCP range and you don't know what HCP is, then you bounce the question back "what is HCP?". It's your right not to know that, but at least you're in a constructive conversation... If they kick you for not knowing the term HCP, you'll have a case, but now you don't.

[inquiry]

Thanks for your inputs,

 

The only thing I learned so far is that "No agreement"

is different from "No information available". Fat one.

 

You know what, if i just say "No agreement", I was kicking out too.

That guy kicked me out in a ACBL BBO tourney once, when I did nothing

wrong and opps was trying to make an issue, and he/she ask I to

apologize for nothing, I refused.

 

Here, I was asked to say how many HCP I had.

and unfortunately , I don't know how to count that, and have no

interest to learn how, so I am out.

You should provide how many hcp if you have a specific agreement. Let;s say you have agreed that 2NT is invitiational. You would say (when asked), "invitational". If you agreed that it showed 10-11 hcp, you should say 10-11 hcp. If you agreed no four card major for the bid, you should add that even if they don't specific ask.

 

If you agreed 2NT was "forcing", you should say that, and if forcing means 13+ hcp, you should add that too. It really isn't hard, you tell what your agreement is.

 

No informations is just that, no information. Your opponents don't know if you have an agreement and are not telling them or if you have no agreement. That is not fair to them. They get to know what information your partner has access too....

[mcphee]

I can't beleive this happens. The idea here is for people to have fun, compete the best they can on a level equal to all. How hard can it be to simply comply with the request? Some play this 2NT as a GF, some don't, frankly I think it should be a required alert, especially for internet bridge. Geesh, they even want you to alert cue bids here.

 

This issue is not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of getting along.

[Fluffy]

Gerben said it, invitaional balanced is the correct answer (regardless of if it is or not), I would ahd answered jsut limit, since it is faster :).

[inquiry]

Also, it's not wise to give lectures to your opponents, if they ask a question you respond. If they ask your HCP range and you don't know what HCP is, then you bounce the question back "what is HCP?". It's your right not to know that, but at least you're in a constructive conversation... If they kick you for not knowing the term HCP, you'll have a case, but now you don't.

If you have no agreed upon hcp range, you are perfectly in your right to not give a range. If the TD ask, you simple respond that we have no agreement so I can't say what our agreed hcp range is.

 

Arrows had no agreements with this fellow, and the correct response to any inquiry (hehehe) is that "we have no agreement, so natural". If they ask is it forcing, or is it invitational, you don't have to say.. you repeat, "we have no agreement". They are not entitled to know if 2NT was forcing or invitational if your partner doesn't know it. However, then second time you bid 2NT whit this partner, you know have an agreement. He saw what you bid 2NT with the last time. So the second time, "we have no agreement" is no longer appropriate. The response should be "natural, non-forcing". Likewise, if your partner now bids 2NT to one of your bids, your assumption is he saw what you had when you bid 2NT, so he should explain it the same (that is, he is no longer able to say, "we have no agreement"). Your 2NT bid has established an agreement for future hands between the two of you.

 

Ben

[arrows]

The sadness is that few people think "I wanna play 2NT" is a correct answer.

For those who play bridge a game counting HCP. This is outrageous violation

of their law. I admit that I presented it in a sarcastic way. But common

sense is what all a pick-up partnership has. we don't have the luxury make up

some fancy preempt. For example, in the first hand, my LHO open

2H showing H + any other suit. Obviously, they are seasoned partnership

 

Another thing I wanna point out is that the incompetent director and management

gives more leeway to the bad guys and hurt who are playing honestly.

 

After the sequence 1C pass 2NT pass; pass ?

It won't take a genius to predict that the chances of my RHO are going to take

any action over 2NT is zero, since he passed 1C the first time. But he kept

asking a question before his final pass and it's his partner turn to lead.

I am not suggest anything here, but what else I suppose to think?