Israel, Bali, & the WBF.

[jonottawa]

The only side I see making demands and threatening consequences (isn't that what we mean by extortion) is the 'give Israel whatever the hell they want' side. And yeah, avoiding bad precedents is why this is a fight worth having.

 

For example, here's Warren Spector: "We need all the teams in the US, open, women's, seniors, to refuse to go. Maybe our Canadian friends will join the protest. Add the Israeli's and a couple teams from Europe and we've destroyed the event in Bali. It's time to stand up and be counted: let's show some solidarity in response to this outrageous act."

 

(Emphasis mine.)

[jdeegan]

:P Would BBO consider blocking all Indonesian IP addresses? Imho, the world bridge community needs to fight back and to start trying to protect its own.

[jdeegan]

Agree with the former, but the latter punishes the players, who are not at fault.

:P Yeah. Just good Germans.

[ArtK78]

The only side I see making demands and threatening consequences (isn't that what we mean by extortion) is the 'give Israel whatever the hell they want' side. And yeah, avoiding bad precedents is why this is a fight worth having.

 

For example, here's Warren Spector: "We need all the teams in the US, open, women's, seniors, to refuse to go. Maybe our Canadian friends will join the protest. Add the Israeli's and a couple teams from Europe and we've destroyed the event in Bali. It's time to stand up and be counted: let's show some solidarity in response to this outrageous act."

 

(Emphasis mine.)

Warren Spector is right.

 

There is only one side that put roadblocks in the way of Israel's participation in the event. There is only one side that is putting roadblocks in the way of Migry's participation in the event. And those roadblocks have nothing to do with anything but nationality (I could say religion, but that is less clear).

 

There is a long history of countries refusing to play against Israel in the World Championships and the WBF doing nothing about it. At what point will the WBF finally say enough is enough?

 

It is too late to avoid bad precedents. There are years of bad precedents. It is now time to change those precedents.

[PhilKing]

One of the problems is that very few countries have rich enough bridge federations to fund the absurd WBF gravy train. If they start saying no to dodgy quasi-dictatorships, they will have to cut back on first class travel and five-star accommodation and dining for all WBF executives and their partners, which are currently paid for by the host city.

[Trinidad]

Correct me if I am wrong (I probably am). But isn't Migry living in Israel?

 

It is quite common that you need to go to the embassy/consulate in your country of residence (or -if there is no consulate or embassy- to the agreed representative) to obtain a visa. If Migry indeed lives in Israel it is not surprising if a visa application at the Indonesian consulate in New York takes longer than normal (i.e. a visa application for an American resident or citizen).

 

That has nothing to do with Israel. If I would go to the Indonesian consulate in New York, it would probably also be (more) difficult for me to get a visa.

 

Rik

[ArtK78]

Correct me if I am wrong (I probably am). But isn't Migry living in Israel?

 

It is quite common that you need to go to the embassy/consulate in your country of residence (or -if there is no consulate or embassy- to the agreed representative) to obtain a visa. If Migry indeed lives in Israel it is not surprising if a visa application at the Indonesian consulate in New York takes longer than normal (i.e. a visa application for an American resident or citizen).

 

That has nothing to do with Israel. If I would go to the Indonesian consulate in New York, it would probably also be (more) difficult for me to get a visa.

 

Rik

Right. Just a coincidence. No doubt the same thing would have happened if she had a British passport.

 

No doubt.

 

 

 

[hrothgar]

Right. Just a coincidence. No doubt the same thing would have happened if she had a British passport.

 

Probably not. Israel and Indonesia don't have established diplomatic relations.

 

With this said and done, Indonesia was willing to grant entrance visas to the Israeli team.

I fully expect that Migry will be able to get an entry visa as well.

 

There will be a couple extra hoops to jump through, but this is far from uncommon...

[ArtK78]

There will be a couple extra hoops to jump through, but this is far from uncommon...

And what is your basis for that statement?

[jonottawa]

It's sad that some people only seem to care (or at least care enough to raise a ruckus) when it's Israel that is affected. If some other country is affected, we get crickets. People whose attitude is (or seems to be) 'As long as I'm okay, screw everybody else' don't deserve much sympathy imo. That being said, on visas, Indonesia seems to be as good a host as most. If there is a little extra red tape for this country or that country, that's far preferable to having the US host and having people being flatly turned away in significant numbers.

 

I'm still curious whether the English ladies are going to end up getting shafted or not. It's nice to see that thread on BW gaining so much steam (oh wait, there is no such thread.) Any news on that front?

[Trinidad]

And what is your basis for that statement?

I don't know where you are coming from or where you are planning to travel to. But it is quite common that you need to jump through a couple of hoops to get a visa (to any country) to begin with. Getting the visa from a third country will often require some extra hoops to jump through.

 

There is a reason why there are agencies whose only business is to apply for visas for profit.

 

I don't think you realize that as a US citizen you are pretty lucky: You will get a visa for most countries fairly easily (if you need one to begin with). This is not normal, don't take it for granted.

 

Rik

[helene_t]

It's sad that some people only seem to care (or at least care enough to raise a ruckus) when it's Israel that is affected. If some other country is affected, we get crickets.

I dunno. How often does it happen that some other country is prevented from participating in sports events for political reasons? OK, South Africa under Apartheid, and Yugoslavia was once excluded from a football EC when the country had de facto ceased to exist. But if the Falkland issue somehow prevented UK teams from playing in South America or Argentinian teams from playing in Europe I think it would make a few BBF'ers angry as well.

[rwbarton]

And what is your basis for that statement?

 

I cannot imagine you really believe that it is equally easy for a citizen of any country to enter any other country, but anyways here is an example: this page indicates that there are special requirements for Indonesian or Malaysian citizens to obtain a visa for entry into Israel.

[jonottawa]

I dunno. How often does it happen that some other country is prevented from participating in sports events for political reasons? OK, South Africa under Apartheid, and Yugoslavia was once excluded from a football EC when the country had de facto ceased to exist. But if the Falkland issue somehow prevented UK teams from playing in South America or Argentinian teams from playing in Europe I think it would make a few BBF'ers angry as well.

It apparently happened to a couple of dozen people (from primarily muslim nations?) when the WC was in Philadelphia and will surely happen again the next time the US hosts the WC, no?

 

I think an in-depth discussion of the way Israel is perceived in the world and the reasons for that is too hot a topic for this forum (at least it is for this poster) but I'll just say that imo the South Africa comparison is a much closer fit than the Falklands (<3,000 people live there) comparison.

[jdeegan]

:P

From the Australian Government - Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

 

This Advice was last issued on Friday, 24 May 2013.

It contains new information in the Summary and under Safety and Security:

Terrorism (in May 2013 police disrupted terrorist groups in West and Central Java). It also contains minor changes and editorial amendments throughout.

 

We advise you to exercise a high degree of caution in Indonesia, including Bali, at this time due to the high threat of terrorist attack. You should also be aware of the severe penalties for narcotics offences, including the death penalty; some specific health risks; and risks associated with natural disasters.

 

• Pay close attention to your personal security at all times and monitor the media for information about possible new safety or security risks.

 

• We continue to receive information that indicates that terrorists may be planning attacks in Indonesia, which could take place at any time.

 

• Terrorist groups remain active throughout Indonesia despite police disruptions. Police continue to conduct operations against these groups and have stated publicly that terrorist suspects remaining at large may seek to attack Western targets.

 

• You should exercise particular caution around locations that have a low level of protective security and avoid places known to be possible terrorist targets. See the Safety and security section of this advice for details.

 

• Terrorists have previously attacked or planned to attack places where Westerners gather, including nightclubs, bars, restaurants, international hotels, airports and places of worship in Bali, Jakarta and elsewhere in Indonesia. These types of venues could be targeted again.

 

• Australians should avoid all protests, demonstrations and rallies as they can turn violent.

 

• Indonesia is subject to a range of natural disasters including volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis and floods. You should pay close attention to emergency procedures and monitor local warnings.

 

• Visitors to Indonesia, particularly to tourist locations such as Bali and Lombok, should be aware of the specific risks from crime, and from drink-spiking and consumption of alcohol adulterated with harmful substances such as methanol. Tourists may also be exposed to scams and credit card/ATM fraud (see under Crime for more information).

 

• Petty crime, such as opportunistic theft, is common in Indonesia. Thieves on motorcycles may snatch handbags and backpacks from pedestrians. Tourists may be exposed to scams and confidence tricks in Indonesia. Legal disputes are common regarding the purchase of real estate including land, houses, holiday clubs and time share schemes.

 

• You should exercise normal beach safety behaviour and consider carefully the risks involved in using motorcycles, including licence and insurance issues (see under Local travel for more information).

 

• Visitors should be aware that there is a risk of rabies throughout Indonesia, in particular Bali and Nias. See under Health for advice to Australians travelling to or resident in Indonesia.

 

• We advise you to reconsider your need to travel to Central Sulawesi, Maluku, Papua and West Papua provinces where additional safety and security risks exist. Since October 2012, a number of violent incidents have been reported in Poso, Central Sulawesi.

 

• Since July 2009, there has been a series of violent attacks in the area around the Freeport Mine in Papua province. A number of these incidents have resulted in deaths, including of one Australian. Attacks were reported in the area in March and April 2013. Further such attacks could occur. Information indicates that attacks may be planned near the area of operation of the Freeport mine.

 

• Ongoing violence in Puncak Jaya District in Papua Province has led to a number of deaths in recent years, including most recently in February 2013 in Tingginambut and Sinak. There is a possibility of further attacks in Papua and West Papua provinces, including attacks on infrastructure and national institutions.

 

• You should telephone ahead for an appointment before going to the Australian Embassy (See Where to get help section).

 

• Because of the high threat of terrorist attack in Indonesia we strongly recommend that you register your travel and contact details with us so we can contact you in an emergency.

 

• Be a smart traveller. Before heading overseas: ◦ organise comprehensive travel insurance and check what circumstances and activities are not covered by your policy

 

◦subscribe to this travel advice to receive free email updates each time it's reissued.

 

 

 

Just in case you missed it on the news, other terrorist activity in Bali:

2002 over 200 dead

2005 over 20 dead

2011 threat warning

2012 planned attack narrowly averted

[mycroft]

2 things:

 

1) "Please be advised that all Indonesian Representative (Embassy or Consulate Generals) hold the right to deny any applicant that deemed ineligible without disclosing the reason." - from the Indonesian Embassy to the US web page.

 

"It is the sole prerogative of each country or region to determine who is allowed to enter. Canadian consular officials cannot intervene on your behalf if you do not meet entry requirements. The following information on entry and exit requirements has been obtained from the Indonesian authorities. However, these requirements are subject to change at any time. It is your responsibility to check with the Embassy of the Republic of Indonesia or its consulates for up-to-date information." - Government of Canada Travel Advisory (this is on *every* page, with the relevant country, including the U.S.)

 

This is all boilerplate and universal. The US is particularly relevant when it comes to "denying entry without disclosing the reason"...as we found out three years ago.

 

2) This isn't the organizer's fault (any more than it was the USBF's fault that they couldn't convince DHS to allow in the players in Philadelphia). It's the government of Indonesia's issue, and it has to be dealt with. The only thing I've heard that is an issue is the organizer's claiming to provide a conduit into the government, and then nothing being heard.

 

There will be places - Israel, say - where the same thing would happen, to other countries' representatives. There will be places - Russia, say - where others may have their visa rejected for other grounds (Is Stephen Fry a bridge player?) Conversely, there will be places - and I'm not going to give an example here - where teams that would qualify may feel uncomfortable going because of the implicit support for the place going there has. Perhaps it is the WBF's responsibility to be aware of where this is likely to be an issue, and not award events to those countries - but remember that very close to the top of that list is the only country allowed two entries to the event (and not *that* far down the list from there is my country)...

[the hog]

:P

From the Australian Government - Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

 

This Advice was last issued on Friday, 24 May 2013.

It contains new information in the Summary and under Safety and Security:

Terrorism (in May 2013 police disrupted terrorist groups in West and Central Java). It also contains minor changes and editorial amendments throughout.

 

We advise you to exercise a high degree of caution in Indonesia, including Bali, at this time due to the high threat of terrorist attack. You should also be aware of the severe penalties for narcotics offences, including the death penalty; some specific health risks; and risks associated with natural disasters.

 

• Pay close attention to your personal security at all times and monitor the media for information about possible new safety or security risks.

 

• We continue to receive information that indicates that terrorists may be planning attacks in Indonesia, which could take place at any time.

 

• Terrorist groups remain active throughout Indonesia despite police disruptions. Police continue to conduct operations against these groups and have stated publicly that terrorist suspects remaining at large may seek to attack Western targets.

 

• You should exercise particular caution around locations that have a low level of protective security and avoid places known to be possible terrorist targets. See the Safety and security section of this advice for details.

 

• Terrorists have previously attacked or planned to attack places where Westerners gather, including nightclubs, bars, restaurants, international hotels, airports and places of worship in Bali, Jakarta and elsewhere in Indonesia. These types of venues could be targeted again.

 

• Australians should avoid all protests, demonstrations and rallies as they can turn violent.

 

• Indonesia is subject to a range of natural disasters including volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis and floods. You should pay close attention to emergency procedures and monitor local warnings.

 

• Visitors to Indonesia, particularly to tourist locations such as Bali and Lombok, should be aware of the specific risks from crime, and from drink-spiking and consumption of alcohol adulterated with harmful substances such as methanol. Tourists may also be exposed to scams and credit card/ATM fraud (see under Crime for more information).

 

• Petty crime, such as opportunistic theft, is common in Indonesia. Thieves on motorcycles may snatch handbags and backpacks from pedestrians. Tourists may be exposed to scams and confidence tricks in Indonesia. Legal disputes are common regarding the purchase of real estate including land, houses, holiday clubs and time share schemes.

 

• You should exercise normal beach safety behaviour and consider carefully the risks involved in using motorcycles, including licence and insurance issues (see under Local travel for more information).

 

• Visitors should be aware that there is a risk of rabies throughout Indonesia, in particular Bali and Nias. See under Health for advice to Australians travelling to or resident in Indonesia.

 

• We advise you to reconsider your need to travel to Central Sulawesi, Maluku, Papua and West Papua provinces where additional safety and security risks exist. Since October 2012, a number of violent incidents have been reported in Poso, Central Sulawesi.

 

• Since July 2009, there has been a series of violent attacks in the area around the Freeport Mine in Papua province. A number of these incidents have resulted in deaths, including of one Australian. Attacks were reported in the area in March and April 2013. Further such attacks could occur. Information indicates that attacks may be planned near the area of operation of the Freeport mine.

 

• Ongoing violence in Puncak Jaya District in Papua Province has led to a number of deaths in recent years, including most recently in February 2013 in Tingginambut and Sinak. There is a possibility of further attacks in Papua and West Papua provinces, including attacks on infrastructure and national institutions.

 

• You should telephone ahead for an appointment before going to the Australian Embassy (See Where to get help section).

 

• Because of the high threat of terrorist attack in Indonesia we strongly recommend that you register your travel and contact details with us so we can contact you in an emergency.

 

• Be a smart traveller. Before heading overseas: ◦ organise comprehensive travel insurance and check what circumstances and activities are not covered by your policy

 

◦subscribe to this travel advice to receive free email updates each time it's reissued.

 

 

 

Just in case you missed it on the news, other terrorist activity in Bali:

2002 over 200 dead

2005 over 20 dead

2011 threat warning

2012 planned attack narrowly averted

 

Have you ever been to Bali? For your information Bali is a far safer destination than the US. You have less chance of being shot and based on recent events in the US, I would not class the US as a safe destination.

Your quotes from DAFTA are highly selective. These travel warnings are generic for a number of countries, including the one in which I live. I feel safer in Laosthan I ever did in the States, or Australia for that matter.

[the hog]

Warren Spector is right.

 

There is only one side that put roadblocks in the way of Israel's participation in the event. There is only one side that is putting roadblocks in the way of Migry's participation in the event. And those roadblocks have nothing to do with anything but nationality (I could say religion, but that is less clear).

 

There is a long history of countries refusing to play against Israel in the World Championships and the WBF doing nothing about it. At what point will the WBF finally say enough is enough?

 

It is too late to avoid bad precedents. There are years of bad precedents. It is now time to change those precedents.

 

Art, the comments made by Warren Spector are buffoonish. It does not say a lot for your powers of logic that you support them.

You consistently ignore the fact that Israel withdrew. To argue that they were forced to withdraw is a blatant misrepresentation of the truth. Israeli citizens are playing in the Transnational. Migry will get her visa. I repeat, Israel withdrew.

I assume you are aware that Indonesia does not recognise Israel. This means that visas are more difficult, but not impossible to obtain. Look at the restrictions placed on Malaysian and Indonesian citizens to enter Israel are at least as onerous as the reverse.

Have you ever been to Bali? You have less chance of getting murdered there than you do in the US. Based on recent events in the States, the US is not a safe place to hold international events.

I leave you with one final point: should the US be barred from holding international events? 32 players were denied visas or have you forgotten this or do you conveniently ignore it?.

[jdeegan]

Have you ever been to Bali? For your information Bali is a far safer destination than the US. You have less chance of being shot and based on recent events in the US, I would not class the US as a safe destination.

Your quotes from DAFTA are highly selective. These travel warnings are generic for a number of countries, including the one in which I live. I feel safer in Laosthan I ever did in the States, or Australia for that matter.

:P Truth be known, I did spend 3 days in Bali in 2000, nice resort, poor country. Some of our companions were cousins who were Australian military. This was before Bali 2002, before East Timor, before Bali 2005 or even the threat warnings in 2010 or 2012. Funny how the Aussie cousins seemed to get it even then.

 

I am sure you will continue to be safe. When you are rich in a poor land speeding in a car is $50. Killing a poor native accidently is $500. Vaya con dios, bro. And may you rot in Hell for your sins. We know.

[the hog]

"When you are rich in a poor land speeding in a car is $50."

Nah! 50,000 Kip here. That is $8.00

[32519]

Anyone know if and where the CCs are available for the 2013 Bermuda Bowl?

[BillHiggin]

Anyone know if and where the CCs are available for the 2013 Bermuda Bowl?

Start at http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/docdefault.asp?page=WBC2013

Then click on the BermudaBowl folder.

For each team, there is a folder containing their convention cards.

[32519]

Much appreciated, Bill. Thanks a ton!

[sathyab]

If you agree to host a major tournament, then you also agree to the rules laid down by the responsible organisation (RO). So no banning of Taiwan from the Chinese olympics, no banning of Israel from the UAE World Cup and no banning of Pakistan from the Indian Commonwealth Games. If a host country decides to change the rules without the authority of the RO then the RO has a responsibility to make sure that this does not succeed, even being ready to switch to another host at short notice in extreme cases. If a host manages to make unauthorised changes of a political nature despite efforts to avoid this and it is too late to cancel, then the RO should send a clear message by imposing some sanction on the host nation. In this case, simply banning Indonesia from the next BB/VC/SB cycle would send the right message that the actions were unacceptable. Offering Israel a place in another competition without sanctioning Indonesia sends precisely the wrong message.

 

@Rik, there was a WTA tennis event last year in, I think, Doha where an Israeli woman had to play on a court away from spectators due to issues with the organisors. Israeli security staff were on the court at all times. That caused something of an international stir but certainly emphasises the point that Israeli competitors do play in such countries.

 

Can't disagree more. Sports are not played in vacuum, they're played in the larger context of society. Playing Bridge or Soccer is not more important than the lives of innocent people.

 

I don't understand why you would require India to not ban Pakistani players in Commonwealth Games, in the light of Mumbai Massacre of 2008. That'd be like saying 6 months after 9/11, the U.S should have hosted a Soccer team from Afghanistan.

 

It should be the other way around. International Sports organizations should themselves ban terrorist-sponsor nations from International sports rather than putting a victimized country on the spot. All through the years of Apartheid, the ICC (International Cricket Council) had banned South Africa from all International Cricket.

[Cyberyeti]

Can't disagree more. Sports are not played in vacuum, they're played in the larger context of society. Playing Bridge or Soccer is not more important than the lives of innocent people.

 

I don't understand why you would require India to not ban Pakistani players in Commonwealth Games, in the light of Mumbai Massacre of 2008. That'd be like saying 6 months after 9/11, the U.S should have hosted a Soccer team from Afghanistan.

 

It should be the other way around. International Sports organizations should themselves ban terrorist-sponsor nations from International sports rather than putting a victimized country on the spot. All through the years of Apartheid, the ICC (International Cricket Council) had banned South Africa from all International Cricket.

 

 

I can't disagree more with you. If you're not prepared to host everybody, don't offer to host. Now there's a discussion to be had if an incident with a nation that had been no problem happens between the awarding of the event and it taking place, but that is not the case here.

 

The problem of your final paragraph is that nobody other than Switzerland would take part in anything. The arab nations would denounce UK/US as terrorist nations, India/Pakistan denounce each other, Israel/Arab nations etc etc