A new system (again)

[mr1303]

Hi everyone.

 

This is the system I'm currently playing. Thoughts would be welcome

 

1C = 16+ (17+ if balanced), symmetric relay postive responses.

1D = 2+, if 11-13 balanced, natural or 4+D 5+ C

1H/S = natural 5+

1NT = 14,16, Keri responses

2C = 5+ clubs, standard precision

2D = mini-multi

2H = 3 suiter short in D

2S = Muiderberg

2NT = bad pre-empt in either minor

3C/D = good pre-empts, at least 2 of the top 3 honours, and usually with a side entry if missing the A

 

This isn't the interesting part. THis follows:

 

Reverse flannery and inverted minor responses to 1D

2C game forcing relay to 1H/S. This works as follows:

 

1S 2C

2D = major 2 suited, balanced or any 5440 with 5 spades. Then 2H relay 2S = bal or 3 suited, 2NT + = 2 suited. After 1S 2C 2D 2H 2S 2NT, 3C = 3 suited 3D = bal high shortage, 3H = medium (diamond) shortage, 3S = club shortage

2H = Pointy 2 suited

2S = spade single suited

2NT+ = Black 2 suited

 

After 1H 2C

2D = bal or major 2 suited

2H = red 2 suited

2S = heart single suited

2NT+ = rounded 2 suited

 

Our rules for starting a relay is that we need enough support for partner's major to be able to play in 4 opposite a single suited (6+ cards) hand. Hence with a void we don't relay.

 

We play 1S 2H as not forcing (although mildly constructive, usually 7-bad 11 HCP).

 

With game forcing hands with hearts, not suitable for relaying, we start with 1NT forcing.

 

Thus 1S 1NT

2C 3H is now game forcing with hearts, slam interest, and either a singleton or void in partner's major.

 

1S 1NT

2C 4H is to play, no slam interest

 

1S 3C and 1S 3D are invitational, 1S 3H is undefined

 

1S 2D is 1st/2nd seat drury. With 4 card support we can take another bid after a sign-off, if our hand seems appropriate.

 

Mark

[david_c]

Basically the system is

 

1S:2C = GF

1S:2D = "drury"

1S:2H = nat, inv, NF

 

Since this was my idea, I'd better point out that even I think it's decidedly suboptimal, and I'd much rather be playing

 

1S:2C = GF

1S:2D = hearts, inv+

1S:2H = "drury"

 

But because this 2D bid is not legal at EBU level 3 there isn't much point in us playing it at the moment.

 

David

[MickyB]

Orange Book 13.2.2

 

"Power responses: 2♣ or 2♦ is an artificial game-try"

 

It may not be a "Power" response, but 2♦ as INV+ with ♥ is both artificial and a game-try. Might be able to squeeze it through?

 

1♠:3♥ preemptive? If that's too simple, how about either a game invite based on a heart singleton or a slam-probe based on an outside void?

 

I'm sure there are some hands left unbiddable by your agreement that the 2♣ relay denies a void in partner's suit. Why not relay then decide whether to break to natural bidding on the next round? That would give you your non-forcing 1NT response back.

[david_c]

Orange Book 13.2.2

 

"Power responses: 2♣ or 2♦ is an artificial game-try"

 

It may not be a "Power" response, but 2♦ as INV+ with ♥ is both artificial and a game-try. Might be able to squeeze it through?

I don't think I'd be able to look the director in the eye ;)

[inquiry]

I don't know, I like 2♣ as "drury" even by unpassed hand... but I like it drury plus, showing game invite value and major fit, game invite+ balanced (without fit...balance with fit goes through immeidate 3NT), or game force with real clubs. Probably not terribly legal either (although as drury alone it is legal).

 

Ben

[mr1303]

I don't know, I like 2♣ as "drury" even by unpassed hand... but I like it drury plus, showing game invite value and major fit, game invite+ balanced (without fit...balance with fit goes through immeidate 3NT), or game force with real clubs. Probably not terribly legal either (although as drury alone it is legal).

 

Ben

 

I like this idea too. However, using 2D as our relay starter will put us too high. Our single suited scheme already takes us passed 3NT on 7321 hands, and the 2 suited hands will also have troubles, since mostly we're only interested in discovering the best game.

 

How does your 3way 2C bid work Ben?

[david_c]

Our single suited scheme already takes us passed 3NT on 7321 hands, and the 2 suited hands will also have troubles, since mostly we're only interested in discovering the best game.

Aha! Yes, that's the problem with trying to adapt the symmetric relay idea to 1M:2C - it forces you to reveal lots of information about shape, which gets you rather high, even though a lot of that information is virtually useless for the sorts of hands which are going to relay. So maybe I can persuade you to play "strength first" after all. ;)

[the hog]

Why don't you play full Symmetric? 1M 1NT is gf relay - all symmetric responses finish below 3NT.

[MickyB]

I've wondered about this...is the lack of a natural NF 1NT response made up for by lots of natural NF 2/1s? Or would you advocate a 2♣ response as an artificial invite?

[the hog]

The NZ Symmetric players played 2/1 as a 1 round force, (mind you this is a long time ago now). I would prefer to play them as transfers, Magic D style - so 2C = t/f to D etc etc. 2 of your M as a weak raise, i step below your M as a good, read invit), raise.

[david_c]

Why don't you play full Symmetric? 1M 1NT is gf relay - all symmetric responses finish below 3NT.

As Mike suggested, I think the loss of a (semi-)natural 1NT bid is too much. It seems to me that you really need the extra space for the weak hands (where you have to be able to stop at 2M), rather than the GF hands (where you have to be able to stop at 3NT).

 

We used to play 2/1 GF in response to our 1M opening bids. The switch to using a 2C relay was intended to solve two problems:

 

1. Balanced GF hands are hard to bid playing natural 2/1.

2. The 2C response is too infrequent playing natural 2/1 (given that it is a very cheap bid).

 

So my first plan was to play 2C = GF balanced or clubs. This is quite a common treatment I think. In order to make the most efficient use of space, the best idea seemed to be that with a balanced hand you would always rebid step 1, whereas other bids showed hands with clubs. So it's beginning to look like a relay system already.

 

I've changed this slightly because it seemed there was room to put a few more hand types into 2C - I like to include GF hands with diamonds (whereas Ben's method is to include inv. hands with support), because we've already taken quite a few hands out of 2D by including all balanced hands in 2C.

 

But back to the point - because 2C includes balanced hands it makes sense to have the option of relaying. (Relaying is a good way of bidding balanced hands.) We've chosen to use symmetric relays because we've already learnt how they work over 1C, though my suspicion is that some other relay scheme would work better because the amount of space available is different. But it's important to realise that we wanted a relay scheme over 2C and we chose symmetric, rather than wanting to use symmetric and choosing 2C. Hope this makes sense :)

 

Besides,

 

1S:1NT = semi-forcing

1S:2C = GF balanced or clubs or diamonds

1S:2D = hearts, inv+

1S:2H = constructive raise

 

I think this has a particular beauty.

[Chamaco]

Besides,

 

1S:1NT = semi-forcing

1S:2C = GF balanced or clubs or diamonds

1S:2D = hearts, inv+

1S:2H = constructive raise

 

I think this has a particular beauty.

I think this is very similar (if not the same) to the ETM 2/1 structure (am I correct Ben ?? :) ).

 

It does have the advantage to discriminate some "problem" hands of "standard" 1NT forcing (namely, weak and invitational hands with hearts unsuitable to bid 3H) when pard opens 1S.

[inquiry]

I don't know, I like 2♣ as "drury" even by unpassed hand... but I like it drury plus, showing game invite value and major fit, game invite+ balanced (without fit...balance with fit goes through immeidate 3NT), or game force with real clubs. Probably not terribly legal either (although as drury alone it is legal).

 

Ben

 

I like this idea too. However, using 2D as our relay starter will put us too high. Our single suited scheme already takes us passed 3NT on 7321 hands, and the 2 suited hands will also have troubles, since mostly we're only interested in discovering the best game.

 

How does your 3way 2C bid work Ben?

It seems to work. The reason I adopted it is quite different from the reason you may want to. I don't bother with other relays on non-competitive auctions. I adopted it to take the pressure off forcing 1NT. My "forcing 1NT" is no longer actually forcing, but all my ohter 2/1 bids are GF. This works for me because balanced hands of game invite or better, no major fit, go through 2♣, balanced hands game force value fit, go through 3NT (or if really strong, jacoby plus 2NT), and game invite hands, 3 cards generally through 2♣, game invite or better with fit through jacoby plus 2NT.

 

This means 1NT no longer includes any of the game force hands, and never includes any "fit" for the major. This means, while it can be very unbalanced, it is no longer forcing. We announce it as "semi-forcing". This means opener can just pass 1NT with many balanced minimums with a weak five card najor. If the ability to play 1NT was the only feature then, of course, it would hardly be worth the effort to unload 1NT. But, it now means that 2NT rebids (after a 1NT bid) can no longer be natural (you would have bid 2♣ then rebid 2NT. This gives you the ability for reverse good/bad 2NT so that responder can bettter define his unbalanced hands with his own suit by using or not using 2NT. Also, since opener passes over 1NT with most balanced minimums (or rebids his suit), this adds to bidding when opener bids a new suit over the forcing 1NT, it almost always is a four card suit or significant extra values.

 

I also like it (and it works), becuase it allows an immediate 1S-P-2S to be made on virtually any 3 card support up to about 7 hcp (with more, use 2C). Of course, you have to alert the raise as not-constructive, or "weak", or as 0-7 hcp or something like that. It turns out, this is more useful when you have a three card fir than auctions that go 1S-P-1N-P-2D-P-2S, where opener knows you are weak, but doesn't know if you actually have a three card fit or not, and you may have from 5 to 9/10 points.

 

Finally, I like 2♣ as this three way drury because, I can have a fit, or no fit, balanced hand with few clubs or unbalanced game force with clubs. The limit of our hand might be 2 of partners major or slam in partners major or in clubs. The oppenents short in both clubs and spades take a risk with a double (when I acutally have clubs) as I might not have clubs and he might run into a buzz saw. An oppoenet iwth some good clubs takes a risk with lead directing double as I might really have clubs. An opponent who overcalls based upon teh theory that we must have a major fit run the risk of bidding on a hand where we don't have any fit. The best way to compete might be to wait until opener and responder define their hands with their second bids, that is safer... let's imagine...

 

1S-P-2C-P <<--- not clear if I should compete or not

2S-P-P-? <<--- 2S = no game opposite drury raise even good one, P=that is what I had (or I had invite balance and decide to play in 5-2 fit).

 

Now it is much safer to bid after than immediately after the 2C bid as both opener and responder know have defined hands. (BTW, we play garrazzo 2/3 doubles after the 2♣ bid and using that, we have been able to catch people who enter the aucton on whim.