Obesity

[onoway]

No fair reading this post/link until after you've voted!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Winstonm]

My experience is that BS precedes actual science. Latest scientific findings concerning type 2 diabetes and obesity.

 

Although human obesity is often associated with insulin resistance and diabetes, this is not always the case. ‘Our data suggests that obesity can be uncoupled from insulin resistance, through the absence of T-bet,’ said Dr Howard. Several of the main drugs currently used to treat type 2 diabetes work by improving insulin sensitivity

[mike777]

Thank goodness, now I can call in sick because I have a real illness, obesity.

 

Perhaps soon we can retire on full disability pay from this illness.

[onoway]

did either of you actually watch the video? Winston, this guy is pretty highly qualified researcher committing his career to diabetes research, he isn't a blogger from some Tennessee mountain cabin.

 

Mike, you clearly either didn't watch it or you didn't understand a word of it, so your sarcasm says more about your attitude to obese people than it does about anything relevant to the video.

[jjbrr]

did either of you actually watch the video? Winston, this guy is pretty highly qualified researcher committing his career to diabetes research, he isn't a blogger from some Tennessee mountain cabin.

 

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/black-snake-moan-sam-jackson.gif

 

I had a bacon cheeseburger and fries from Braum's for lunch today. Way underrated fast food chain.

 

Come at me?

[gwnn]

This guy's way of presentation is incredibly annoying... He's clearly a very intelligent person and committed to his ideas but does he need to be so condescending? We are not tiny little children. And there are many, many obese people who are fat because of their fault, no need to exonerate everyone. On the other end of the spectrum people are probably more wrong but at least they can make some comedy from it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXTq2_3LfXM

[Cyberyeti]

I'm fat, I've been fat for 30 years, but a lot more so for the last 20, is it my fault ? yes I eat too much for the amount of exercise I take (I used to be a decent sportsman and took a lot more), and have not reduced my intake as much as I should.

 

I'm also diabetic (for 4 years) with a huge family history of that, did my weight have anything to do with that ? well the worst it probably did was to bring it forward 5-10 years.

 

Can you judge a book by its cover ? not necessarily, I always used to cause apoplexy at gyms, they took a look at me, made their judgments then did some measurements and found my lean bodyweight was about 215 so I would be very healthy at 250 (I'm 6'0) but that's still a BMI of 32 so technically obese. I've managed to shed about 35 lbs over the last 2 years, but still a lot more to go.

[Winstonm]

did either of you actually watch the video? Winston, this guy is pretty highly qualified researcher committing his career to diabetes research, he isn't a blogger from some Tennessee mountain cabin.

 

Mike, you clearly either didn't watch it or you didn't understand a word of it, so your sarcasm says more about your attitude to obese people than it does about anything relevant to the video.

 

onoway,

 

I watched part of it but not all of it. I have been around enough doctors to know that they are human - so I look for more justification of what they say, especially when one is "selling an idea".

 

I know the science could be wrong - there seems to be some correlation between obesity and diabetes, but there are obese non-diabetics and diabetics who are not obese, so the connection is not perfect. At the same time, Dr. John McDougall has long argued that type II diabetes can be cured with a strict vegan-like diet.

 

Type II diabetes is a complex disease, and the study I linked to showed the latest information of the cause of insulin resistance.

 

I reserve doubt for medical information that has not been submitted to the scientific process.

[blackshoe]

[snip]

there are many, many obese people who are fat because of their fault, no need to exonerate everyone.

Oh, there are? Prove it.

 

All Dr. Attia was saying is that we should question the conventional wisdom. Your response is to simply reiterate it. Not exactly a good argument.

 

As for "condescending" I did not see it as that. He was clearly emotional about his initial reaction to the patient whose foot he removed. The same reaction you would presumably have had. If anything, it's that "you're fat because you choose to be" reaction that's condescending.

 

"Wrong, but funny" is still wrong.

[blackshoe]

I'm fat, I've been fat for 30 years, but a lot more so for the last 20, is it my fault ? yes I eat too much for the amount of exercise I take (I used to be a decent sportsman and took a lot more), and have not reduced my intake as much as I should.

 

I'm also diabetic (for 4 years) with a huge family history of that, did my weight have anything to do with that ? well the worst it probably did was to bring it forward 5-10 years.

 

Can you judge a book by its cover ? not necessarily, I always used to cause apoplexy at gyms, they took a look at me, made their judgments then did some measurements and found my lean bodyweight was about 215 so I would be very healthy at 250 (I'm 6'0) but that's still a BMI of 32 so technically obese. I've managed to shed about 35 lbs over the last 2 years, but still a lot more to go.

Covert Bailey, who wrote Fit or Fat back in the 80s, when "fat" was the dietary bugaboo of choice, told the story of a professional football team that hired him as a consultant. They had a player, a tackle iirc, who they had fined $1000 a week every week for several weeks, because he "could not or would not" make weight - he was over the approved weight for his height according to their charts. Bailey measured his body fat - it was 2% of his total weight. He couldn't lose any more "fat" - he didn't have any to lose. Bailey didn't say whether the team gave back the money they'd fined him.

[Winstonm]

Oh, there are? Prove it.

 

All Dr. Attia was saying is that we should question the conventional wisdom. Your response is to simply reiterate it. Not exactly a good argument.

 

As for "condescending" I did not see it as that. He was clearly emotional about his initial reaction to the patient whose foot he removed. The same reaction you would presumably have had. If anything, it's that "you're fat because you choose to be" reaction that's condescending.

 

"Wrong, but funny" is still wrong.

I don't like to use the term "their fault", but what we put in our mouths is our decision. I won't post all the information here, but I can refer you to Dr. John McDougall and The Starch Solution and tell you that anyone who follows that plan cannot be obese - problem is it is so severe few people can do it unless required by culture.

 

I do not doubt that diabetes is diet related, but IMO what will be found is that the foods that lead to diabetes also lead to atherosclerosis and obesity. I doubt diabetes to be a cause of obesity.

[blackshoe]

If you doubt, examine the evidence, all the evidence. Or get some new evidence, which is what Dr. Attia is doing. I'm pretty sure if his research shows that his hypothesis is wrong, he'll admit it. But what if it's right?

 

Think outside the box.

[Winstonm]

If you doubt, examine the evidence, all the evidence. Or get some new evidence, which is what Dr. Attia is doing. I'm pretty sure if his research shows that his hypothesis is wrong, he'll admit it. But what if it's right?

 

Think outside the box.

 

The place to examine scientific evidence is in peer-reviewed journals - not in internet video posts. Taking into account all the evidence makes no sense, as only valid evidence matters.

 

The time to present conclusions to the public is after the testing is done, not in the hypothesis stage. Anyone presenting a one-sided argument in support of his own hypothesis sounds more to me like someone trying to sell a product than someone trying to accurately research.

 

Thinking "outside the box" is impossible because we are all boxed in by reality. What I think you mean is "willing suspension of disbelief", a necessity for the enjoyment of fantasy.

[onoway]

Ha. So exactly what IS "reality"? As far as scientific study is concerned, if you had watched a little more of the video he makes a point that he is part of a group of highly qualified scientists studying insulin resistance and they all have different opinions as to the cause which they are investigating, so the suggestion that he is trying to preempt science to his own pov is certainly not justified.

 

It seems to me that "thinking outside the box" is what has led to virtually all progress in human history. And vitriolic reaction on the part of scientists who resent others who think outside the box is certainly well documented over and over from such things as saying an eclipse was a sign that the gods were annoyed and must be appeased or the earth was NOT flat and the sun didn't revolve around it, to the concept of washing hands might diminish the incidence of death among women giving birth.

 

Dr Linus Pauling, who was a Nobel prize winner was designated by his peers as having sadly lost it when he advocated a specific regime of a specific form of vitamin C for the treatment of some cancers; a regime which apparently the Mayo Clinic found actually to have some basis in fact, some 40 years later. Who'd a thought.

 

It isn't a willing suspension of DISbelief so much as a willing suspension of BELIEF.

[onoway]

To refer to other research which might have a bearing on this; researchers recently found that a change in the gut bacteria is apparently a fairly reliable indicator of developing diabetes. A number of years ago Scottish scientists found that feeding animals GMO food changed the flora in the gut, they made no claims as to what that might mean, but they observed it as a definite result of the diet. We all eat GMO foods unless we grow all our own and never touch anything we didn't produce ourselves, from beer to ice cream or BBQ sauce or corn flakes.

 

Other researchers found that chickens who had shown no visible evidence of avian flu although having been exposed to it had abnormally high amounts of fat around their organs and in the stomach cavity. Did those chickens all eat too much fast food and not exercise enough?

[gwnn]

Don't get me wrong, I completely disagree with saying things like 'fat people are lazy' or what not. I also completely disagree with his disrespect/pity the doctor felt towards that woman in the hospital. Obese people deserve the benefit of the doubt that they may be victims as opposed to 'perpetrators' or what not.

 

While I know how silly it is to talk in terms of sample sizes of 1 or figures close enough to 1, at least I am not a professional doctor giving a talk in front of hundreds of people. I know that I got quite fat after I moved away from home for college and got to buy my own food and to buy my own soda. The same with many friends of mine (no this is still not a scientific study). After switching to diet soda and exercising more and eating salads more, I lost around 50 pounds.

 

Good for him that he's fighting for a change in perspective and trying to look for some new effects but he should try to stick to the facts and try to treat his audience with a little more respect.

 

edit: the condescending bit was him explaining about 5 times very slowly 'cause and effect. what if the cause is the effect?

[kenberg]

When I exercise regularly I lose weight. Lately I have been quite busy and have exercised less. I have gained weight.

 

I don't doubt that it is more complicated than that. I never had a weight problem until I had an auto-immune disease thirty some years back The treatment was 120 mg of predisone every day. Cure the problem but there were side effects to the cure. And surely genetics plays a role. But I lose weight when I exercise, and that's a fact.

 

I didn't care much for the video. You have to wade through a lot of stuff before you see if he actually has anything to say. I particularly liked the part when he mentioned how humble he was. I gather that he is in favor of having an open mind and doing scientific research. Fine with me.

 

Recently I saw some tv show, I have o idea waht, where one of the characters announced that she had spent a great deal of money on a gym membership but it hadn't helped at all. "Apparently you also have to go", she said.

 

 

Sometimes things just happen. My auto-immune disease for example. My body decided that my eyes were foreign objects that should be driven out. Such things happen. But mostly we make choices and our choices have consequences. It would take more than a TED talk to change my mind about this.

[cherdano]

Y

But what if it's right?

 

Think outside the box.

 

Since you keep misusing that phrase, let me try to explain:

 

Pop quiz: "Think outside the box" applies when

• making a major decision concerning your health/the planet's future/a major political decision with irrevertible consequences for millions of people, OR
  
• when looking for a new working hypothesis to try and experiment with, in order to verify it in your laboratory/with a new study/...
  

 

Your version of "think outside the box" would suggest driving on the wrong side of the road. Because nobody has really tried it, and do you really trust the scientific literature about it's benefits?

[blackshoe]

The place to examine scientific evidence is in peer-reviewed journals - not in internet video posts. Taking into account all the evidence makes no sense, as only valid evidence matters.

 

The time to present conclusions to the public is after the testing is done, not in the hypothesis stage. Anyone presenting a one-sided argument in support of his own hypothesis sounds more to me like someone trying to sell a product than someone trying to accurately research.

 

Thinking "outside the box" is impossible because we are all boxed in by reality. What I think you mean is "willing suspension of disbelief", a necessity for the enjoyment of fantasy.

You apparently have no clue what I mean, and aren't likely to find one. :(

[blackshoe]

Since you keep misusing that phrase, let me try to explain:

Precisely how many times have I misused that phrase in say the last ten years? Oh, that many? In what way? Can you prove it?

 

Don't make stupid assertions.

[gwnn]

I forgot to link this before, it may shed some light on the matter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

[billw55]

There are some things in life I don't need scientific studies to tell me about. One of them is that most fat people are fat from their own doing, and it is within their power to lose weight.

 

Athletes in strength sports do need different tables. I remember when a clever writer applied the BMI to the roster of the then-NBA champion Chicago Bulls. Every player except Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr was obese according to the tables. Unfortunately bridge does not count as athletic :P

[Winstonm]

You apparently have no clue what I mean, and aren't likely to find one. :(

 

Perhaps I did not grasp what you were saying, but it appeared as if you were suggesting that shutting out non-traditional medical research was somehow closing off a genuine avenue of life improvement. All I said in response was that if this type research worked, eventually it would have to be tested and verified by traditional methods else we are simply "hoping" for a cure, i.e., taking someone's word that it works. Suspending our disbelief, so to speak. :(

[helene_t]

I used to weigh a bit much. Then Gosha adviced me to stop eating take-away and to replace fruit juices with tap water. I lost 15 kg in less than half a year.

 

Given that I have never been under much peer pressure to eat junk food and that I have always lived in places with reasonable tap water you can say that it was entirely my own fault. I could of cause blame my parents/teachers/gps/government for not having given me better advice. Or I could blame the take-away shop and juice manufacturers. Anyway, I don't like those ATB games much. Much better to discusss what to do about it, and indeed, how big the problem is. Maybe a few kilo overweight isn't that bad.

 

I think there are very few people who have such metabloc anomalies that they couldn't keep a reasonable BMI without extreme measures beyond avoiding sugar and empty calories, limiting starch, and just not eating more than they need to get enough energy, protein and micronutrients. So in that sense you could say that it is almost always the person's own fault.

 

OTOH it is obviously much more difficult for some than for others.

[Winstonm]

I used to weigh a bit much. Then Gosha adviced me to stop eating take-away and to replace fruit juices with tap water. I lost 15 kg in less than half a year.

 

Given that I have never been on much peer pressure to eat junk food and that I have always lived in places with reasonable tap water you can say that it was entirely my own fault. I could of cause blame my parents/teachers/gps/government for not having given me better advice. Or I could blame the take-away shop and juice manufacturers. Anyway, I don't like those ATB games much. Much better to discusss what to do about it, and indeed, how big the problem is. Maybe a few kilo overweight isn't that bad.

 

I think there are very few people who have such metabloc anomalies that couldn't keep a reasonable BMI without extreme measures beyond avoiding sugar and empty calories, limiting starch, and just not eating more than they need to get enough energy, protein and micronutrients. So in that sense you could say that it is almost always the person's own fault.

 

OTOH it is obviously much more difficult for some than for others.

 

I read an interesting book many years ago that claimed the problem with the U.S. diet is that we eat like noblemen of old, that in the past only the wealthy few could afford our diet - and that diet brought its own special diseases to the wealthy of that era, like gout and diabetes and fatty liver disease.

 

The leanest cultures historically tended to be those who relied primarily on starches as the basis of diet. Interestingly, man has 7 times the amylase than other primates, which is essential for digesting starches, which means man could move away from food sources grown only around the equator and live in other latitudes by consuming starch-based plants like potatoes, rice, and corn.