akwoo Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 From my limited experience teaching bridge, one of the most difficult issues is, 'is this bid forcing or not?' 2/1 GF makes it a ton clearer whether strong auctions are forcing or not. Ambiguity is removed from auctions like: 1H-2C-2H (Is that forcing? I'd anticipate that you're gonna get passed a lot, despite it being forcing in SAYC). Is 1H-2C-3C forcing (it's not clear in the booklet). It is possible that it gives it all back on 1M-1NT! auctions, as those suck, so I'm not sure it's clear cut or anything, but it is generally much clearer whether a bid is forcing or not, and that makes it a LOT easier to teach. vvvvvvvvvvvvv: Reasonable. The 1M-2C-3C auction might be a better example then. I don't think the rule is that intuitive either, rather than '1M-2m is absolutely forcing to game forever and ever the end.' Yes, I agree Standard American has these annoyances. I think one should go with 5 card major strong NT stone age Acol, which means the only the following are forcing: 1) New suits by responder2) Reverses and jump shifts by opener (And for a real beginner, not even reverses, because it's hard to understand what those are.) Yes I realize this makes 1♠-2♣-2♥ and and 1♠-2♣-3♣ non-forcing. I think this is easier to live with than the forcing 1N. In my experience, beginners playing "Standard American" do not know that 1♠-2♣-2♠ is forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Actually I don't teach 1NT as forcing even in a 2/1 context. I prefer semi-forcing myself, and for beginners you may as well remove the 3-card limit raise from 1NT and bundle it into 1M-3M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Yes I realize this makes 1♠-2♣-2♥ and and 1♠-2♣-3♣ non-forcing. I think this is easier to live with than the forcing 1N. Normally in Acol, 2/1 is forcing to 2 of the opening suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Normally in Acol, 2/1 is forcing to 2 of the opening suit. In old fashioned Acol. In modern Acol most play it as forcing to 2NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akwoo Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Actually I don't teach 1NT as forcing even in a 2/1 context. I prefer semi-forcing myself, and for beginners you may as well remove the 3-card limit raise from 1NT and bundle it into 1M-3M. Here's what I'm worried about: Playing Std Amer or Acol, I see many beginners and even some life novices pass hands like ♠x ♥xx ♦Axxx ♣Kxxxxx opposite a 1M opener because they know they can't bid at the 2 level without 10 hcp and think they can't bid 1N with a singleton (and a doubleton). (Also, they hate playing 1N since it's the hardest contract and are afraid to be left in it.) It may be second nature to us, but responding 1N with that hand is quite unnatural! That's reasonably tolerable; a few games will be missed, but not many, and sometimes opponents will rescue you by balancing. However, if beginners start passing ♠x ♥xx ♦Kxxx ♣AKxxxx opposite a 1M opener, that's a real problem. Normally in Acol, 2/1 is forcing to 2 of the opening suit. I do know this. However, I think treating 1♥-1♠-2♦ and 1♥-2♣-2♦ differently is already too complicated for beginners. The forcing/not-forcing distinction should be based on as little information from the previous bidding as possible. Keep in mind many life novices will, despite numerous honest attempts to learn, never understand what a reverse is. Beginners need to use 110% of their brainpower just to keep track of which aces and kings have been played and how many trumps are out. They don't have any left to keep track of the bidding, even when it's sitting in front of them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 In old fashioned Acol. In modern Acol most play it as forcing to 2NT. This has not been my experience, but perhaps none of my partners or opponents play modern Acol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Forcing to two of the opening suit is almost universal on the British islands. People open too light for f2nt to be playable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 I don't see how and Acol 2/1 can force to 2NT given the recommendations I've seen for opening and 2/1 standards that I've seen over the years: 1) Acol is known for at least reasonably light openers in the first place 2) Old and indeed quite modern standards for a minimum 2/1 is/was 9hcp. A light opener and 9hcp will probably scrape 7 tricks in NT, not 8 (not with any regularity anyway). 3) Some more modern literature I've seen recommends upping the minimum requirement for a 2/1 to be a 10 count (much as per "Standard"). Even so, this hardly makes 2NT a comfortable resting place when opener has a non-fitting min. From experience, if you keep your 1 level openers reasonably sound and your 2/1 showing 11hcp - or maybe an upgraded 10 - then it is workable to play a 2/1 as f2nt. This, however, is not standard Acol as far as I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 From experience, if you keep your 1 level openers reasonably sound and your 2/1 showing 11hcp - or maybe an upgraded 10 - then it is workable to play a 2/1 as f2nt. This, however, is not standard Acol as far as I know.It is not really playable either since opener will pass the 1NT response with 15-16 points. But presumably you could play a sound multi/muiderberg style in combination with mandatory 1NT opening on 5M332 in range. Then 1M will be sound unless it is both majors, so 1♠ followed by 2♠ would be showing a sound opener and could be forcing. You still have to find a solution for the 10-12 Flannery hands, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 It seems to me that 2/1 forcing to 2NT incorporates the worst of both worlds. If you are going to play 2/1 forcing to 2NT, you might as well go whole hog and play it forcing to game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 11, 2014 Report Share Posted November 11, 2014 Forcing to two of the opening suit is almost universal on the British islands. People open too light for f2nt to be playable. Interesting. As I have already stated on more than 1 occassion, forcing to 2NT was standard in Australia even 20 years ago. It is FAR superior to have responder promise a second bid rather than the crude method of only forcing to 2 opener's suit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Interesting. As I have already stated on more than 1 occassion, forcing to 2NT was standard in Australia even 20 years ago. It is FAR superior to have responder promise a second bid rather than the crude method of only forcing to 2 opener's suit. Why not promise a second bid unless opener's rebid is 2NT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Why not promise a second bid unless opener's rebid is 2NT? 2NT in this situation is normally forcing to game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Why not promise a second bid unless opener's rebid is 2NT?52NT is a 15-17 rebid and is a gf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 If you want to play sound 2-level responses in a weak nt 4cH 5cS context you can play kaplan inversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 It seems to me that 2/1 forcing to 2NT incorporates the worst of both worlds. If you are going to play 2/1 forcing to 2NT, you might as well go whole hog and play it forcing to game. Well, I've never been a convert to 2/1. Don't like forcing NT and never have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 It is not really playable either since opener will pass the 1NT response with 15-16 points. But presumably you could play a sound multi/muiderberg style in combination with mandatory 1NT opening on 5M332 in range. Then 1M will be sound unless it is both majors, so 1♠ followed by 2♠ would be showing a sound opener and could be forcing. You still have to find a solution for the 10-12 Flannery hands, though. It works with a 14-16 NT opener though. And yes, though it has its drawbacks, a 5M332 opens 1NT when in range. And, yes, I do like (constructive-ish) 2 suited pre-empts. Prefer 2D multi and Polish style 2H, 2S, 2NT (5/5 shapes). I don't worry about 5/4 shapes if they are not 1 level openers. Seems to work OK to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Why not promise a second bid unless opener's rebid is 2NT? Coz a 2NT is not weak NT. A weak NT hand rebids a 2nd 4 card suit if possible or repeats it's suit (including making a 4 card diamond rebid if necessary over 2C) and lets responder make the running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Well, I've never been a convert to 2/1. Don't like forcing NT and never have. Neither do I, but I do think that 2/1 FG is better than 2/1 F2NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 A weak NT hand rebids a 2nd 4 card suit if possible or repeats its suit Or opens a weak NT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Or opens a weak NT... Weak NT does not work with 2/1 as f2NT and a non forcing 1NT response. A non forcing 1NT response includes most 10 counts and the odd downgraded 11. Therefore a balanced opener can afford to pass with up to 13 or a poor 14 comfortable in the knowledge that game was 50/50 at best. However once opener picks up a reasonable 14 count, you want to bid, but cannot for fear that responder was weak. Therefore the opening NT has to start at a reasonable 14 count. If you're saying you don't like my system - fair enough - it isn't perfect. But neither is Acol, SA, or 2/1 (or Precision or Blue Club or whatever). Edit, p.s. depending on exactly what your 1 of a suit openers show, a weak NT may well be opening 1C a lot (or all) of the time. In which case the argument about what is forcing or not etc on a weak, balanced opener tends to go away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 If you're saying you don't like my system - fair enough - it isn't perfect. But neither is Acol, SA, or 2/1 (or Precision or Blue Club or whatever). It's not that I don't like your system; I didn't know what it was. I had gathered from an earlier post that you don't play 2/1 F 2NT. My mistake. PS As open strong NT, I am wondering what a 2NT rebid after 2/1 shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 It's not that I don't like your system; I didn't know what it was. I had gathered from an earlier post that you don't play 2/1 F 2NT. My mistake. It depends on who I am playing with! PS As open strong NT, I am wondering what a 2NT rebid after 2/1 shows. Assuming I'm playing 2/1 as F2NT, then the 2NT rebid works FAR better as a strong (17+) bid. If you gobble up the whole 2 level to show a weak NT, when responder isn't going to drop the bidding below that level anyway, then you make it bad for the 17+ flat hand that now presumably has to rebid 3NT (eugh). Further, when responder was planning a reverse, they are now forced to the 3 level to show it. Really it is far more like playing 2/1GF (but not quite) without the forcing NT response than it is to Acol or Standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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