manudude03 Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 [hv=pc=n&s=sat4hqjdakjt5cq63&n=sk732h4dq632ca854&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1c(16+)2h(10-14)d(9+, no solid stopper, takeout)3hpp3sp4sppp]266|200[/hv] MPs scoring.Partner and I had a bit of a disagreement on this one. Over 3H, double by either partner would be penalties. A foul lie of the cards (spades 5-1, king of clubs offside, diamonds 3-1) meant that 4S went 5 off, 5D can be held to -2. ATB (yes, the opponents can make 4H). edit: 12-14 NT.1C- 16+2H-intermediate (10-14)X-9+ without strong stopper in hearts, takeout orientated.vulnerability was white/red. 3H over 2H would have shown opening values without a heart stop, 3N would have promised a double stop, everything else would be natural (bids promising at least HTxxx). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerE Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 What's your NT range? I'd open this 1N playing any range that includes 17. Using my methods: 1N-(2♥)-3♥ (4♠ exactly, no ♥ stop)-(p)4♦ (Suit, also no heart stop, not 4♠) etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 You are going to have to provide more system information. South's opening bid makes sense only in a strong club system, and you did not mention that. Given that South's opening is likely to be a strong club, I need a definition for North's first double. After that, it seems odd that a double of 3♥ would be for penalties, but perhaps the additional information needed to explain the first two calls will help to explain that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 You are going to have to provide more system information. South's opening bid makes sense only in a strong club system, and you did not mention that. Given that South's opening is likely to be a strong club, I need a definition for North's first double.Were the Yellow shadings with explanations added after your post? I didn't know the OP could do that. Anyway, maybe we should just move on with our minus 250, if the colors on the chart are accurate ---vs minus 420, or possible minus 300 when they woke up and doubled 5D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted June 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 Explanations are in the yellow boxes as aqua pointed out. It is possible to edit those after posting, but I didn't. I'll add the explanations for the less yellow-box-conscious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 Sorry, didn't notice them. I hate the fact that the double of 3♥ is for penalties. Given that, I don't see what else North can do other than 3♠, although you did not state whether he had any other actions available to him over 2♥ besides double to show 9+. If that is the only way North could show a 9+ point hand, you have really boxed yourself on this auction. Quite frankly, at matchpoints 4♠ is not the worst contract that I have ever seen (admittedly, I have seen quite a few bad contracts). You are going to need quite a bit of luck to bring it home, and I am not shocked that it won't make. However, I suspect that it could have been played for more than 5 tricks at the table, even with bad breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 Chalk it down to system, penalty doubles from both sides are ludicrous over 3♥, since you've shown 16+/9+ you are in a forcing pass situation, N virtually cannot hold a penalty double here, so allowing him a takeout double will get you to diamonds, although I can see a case for S having a penalty X available, I think his X is best as T/O once hearts are bid and raised also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted June 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 Funny that, I was thinking about the line of play taken walking towards the train, yes he butchered it. It was 2 rounds of hearts, ruffed. AK of spades, then tried to cash a few diamonds, 2nd one got ruffed, last trumps drawn and hearts run. Declarer only took 2 spades, 1 diamond, 1 club and a heart ruff. I think it can maybe be held to -2, didn't go too deep in the analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 north should bid 4h over 3h imo. i don't think he wants to play 3nt opposite a hand which didn't double. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 X-9+ without strong stopper in hearts, takeout orientated. Yet if the same hand doubles 3♥ it's for penalty? That makes no sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 Yet if the same hand doubles 3♥ it's for penalty? That makes no sense to me.We agree noting the forcing 1C opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 x instead of 3♠? I read the comments about it being for penalty but I couldn't believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 i don't know why this is all so perplexing. there's nothing unreasonable about playing penalty doubles here. they're in a forcing pass situation (totally different to when one hand's yet to show values in which case you need your t/o X). south's pass implies a willingness to defend - with a shapely hand opposite a positive without a heart stack (i.e. what the original double showed) he would have bid himself. opposite that, north might easily want to defend. after all, that's normally the easiest way to a plus score with 2 random balanced hands and no big fit. imagine the north hand with 1 extra heart and fewer diamond. where would you want to play then? 3hx obviously. and who do you think is going to X it (or convert a t/o x) if north can't double for penalties? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 In my strong club system this shows a 3 suiter with short hearts. When was the last time you had opening hand with 5 card suit you can bid and stopper in opponents suit? + with that hand you could X and cuebid and have no problem at all. Anyway since North would have started with 2♠ if he had 5 of them, South should bid 4♦ over 3♠. I don't think North should X on the second round, he really cant stand a pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 when you are GF and don't play take out doubles, you are just reversing the meanings of pass and double. This means that south made what others would call a take out double of 3♥, and then with only 3 spades raised to game. This is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 100% south South has to realize the problem with spades from north'spoint of view. After 3h it is fairly obvious our system will notallow us to penalize 3h or bid 3n (heart QJ assures that) bid 4d and clear this mess up as best you can. There is simply no wayto convince p your hand is no longer worth a 1c opener so you willgo overboard but at least it won't be blindly like might happen if youpass over 3h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 I would have thought the pass of 3H was like a "responsive" pass ---making it automatic to now bid 4D (doubt about trump, but 5 of those). So, it didn't occur to me that it would be considered a bad thing. And, yep our 1C opening strength has turned to crap; but we are stuck in commitment to game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 So 2S would have been natural, but how strong? An initial reading of your post would suggest 2+ HCP but maybe it would be F or even GF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted June 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 So 2S would have been natural, but how strong? An initial reading of your post would suggest 2+ HCP but maybe it would be F or even GF? GF (pass covers all weaker hands) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 While I agree that double by north as penalties is absurd, I like the idea that double would be a more balanced hand (Kxxx xx Qxx Axxx). This makes it easier for south to pass with a hand such as this. We have already denied 5 spades by doubling on the last round, so 3S as something like a 4-1-4-4 makes a lot of sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 I don't think playing penalty doubles by north is absurd. South made a forcing pass, inviting penalties, knowing that his p doesn't have a heart stopper. This means that North should double for penalties which is defensive in context of his earlier call. Say with xxx of hearts, or with xx of hearts and a couple of quick tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 [hv=pc=n&s=sat4hqjdakjt5cq63&n=sk732h4dq632ca854&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1c(16+)2h(10-14)d(9+, no solid stopper, takeout)3hpp3sp4sppp]266|200|MPs scoring. vulnerability was white/red.Partner and I had a bit of a disagreement on this one. Over 3H, double by either partner would be penalties. A foul lie of the cards (spades 5-1, king of clubs offside, diamonds 3-1) meant that 4S went 5 off, 5D can be held to -2. ATB (yes, the opponents can make 4H).12-14 NT.1C- 16+2H-intermediate (10-14)X-9+ without strong stopper in hearts, takeout orientated.3H over 2H would have shown opening values without a heart stop, 3N would have promised a double stop, everything else would be natural (bids promising at least HTxxx).[/hv] Agree with helene_t. IMO, when you both know you have a fit and a combined 25+ HCP, pass should be forcing, so it's sensible to define double as a penalty suggestion, especially as some opponents take liberties after a strong ♣. And no blame for North-South, who seem to have judged as well as they could, in a crowded auction: 3♠ should show only four; 4♠ is a reasonable Moysian gamble; and 5♦ seems a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 It simple if north denies having 5S, then 3S is ok and south should bid 4D because he doesnt really handle a H tap nicely. Often it goes H, H and you pitch a slow loser from north and you can deal with 4-2 trumps nicely because of south H doubleton. However AKJTx make you think that you get rid of slow losers anyway. If north may still have 5S then he should bid 4H showing 4144,31(45), 41(35) and not 3S. Of course X as penalty is normal here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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