Strong club: opening strong 2 suiters as 2S/2NT ?

[Chamaco]

Hi all !

 

Yet another post to ask opinions on ideas.

 

Before the questions, I'll briefly summarize the system we are currently play, and after that I'll state the questions.

 

THE SYSTEM

 

1C = 16+ except 4441 17-20 (opened as 2D Multi)

1D = nebulous: either max 15 with 4+ diams (may have 5cM only if 65), or balanced, 13-15, when NV, 1st/2nd seat, 11-13 otherwise (depends from 1NT opening range)

1H/1S = 5+ cards, max 15

1NT = 10-12, NV, 1st/2nd seat, 14-16 otherwise

2C = either 6+ (or a great 5 bagger), or 5C + a side 4cM

2D = Multi = weak 2 or 17-20 4441

2H = 4441/5440/5431 short in diamonds, no 5 card major

2S/2NT = UNDEFINED (Yet)

3X = standard preempts

3NT = broken minor

4C/D= Namyats

4H/S = preempt

etc....

-----------------------------------------------

 

The questions

 

As you can see, we did not define yet 2S and 2NT openings, and we are trying to decide how to use them.

 

I know that many pairs use them for 2-suited weak bids (Muiderberg, Unusual, etc). This is certainly a distinct common sense possibility.

Their fequency should be higher than stronger bids; however, the frequency of employment will be lowered by other factors, such as unfavourable vulnerability, seat considerations, etc.

But yes, this is a distinct possibility.

 

However, after making several simulations on strong club openings, it suddenly occurred to me one thing:

THE MOST DIFFICULT HANDS TO BID ARE MINIMUM (16-18/19) TWO SUITERS !

 

These hands:

 

1) are VERY vulnerable to opps overcalling and bouncing at a high level

 

2) if pard responds 1D, they are not easy to bid; this is secondary, one may as well employ the Ultimate Club bids to 2S/3CDH to show the lowest of a touching 2 suiters and 2NT to show a generic non touching 2-suiter

 

3) unless using relay systems- which is not the topic of this post - if pard makes a positive response, it is often awkward to find a minor suit fit

 

In other words, minimum reverse 2-suiters often bring trouble, both in contested and uncontested auction.

 

So, I thought, why not open strong 2 suiters with 2 dedicated bids, immediately, removing them from the 1C opening ?

 

2S = generich touching 2 suiter, 2NT = positive asks, GF (with bad hand, bid a suit as pass/correct) then opener bids STEP (transfer) BELOW his 1st suit up the line, eg

3C = D+H, responder sets the trump suit below game

3D = H+S, responder sets the trump suit below game

3H = S+C, responder sets the trump suit below game

3S = C+D, responder sets the trump suit below game ;

 

2NT = generic non touching, 3C = positive ask (with bad hand, bid a suit above 3C as pass/correct), then opener bids STEP BELOW (xfer) his 1st suit up the line;

eg

3D = H+C, responder sets the trump suit below game

3H = S+D, responder sets the trump suit below game

 

Advantages:

 

1) when they do occur, easier bidding;

 

2) even when they do NOT occur, the 1C openings benefiit from excluding them from the opening: it is easier to defend vs opps preempting, AND it is easier to develop the auction even without intervention, especially when responder is balanced (usually opener will be either balanced or one-suiter; if two suiter, he'll have a battleship 19+)

 

Disadvantages

 

1) Less preemption: but if preemption is a plus, also PROTECTING our strong openings from preemption is an advantage

 

2) 2S and 2NT do not promise immediately any suit: so opps may overcall; but I suppose that anyways responder will know at the second round of bidding immediately both suits

 

I would greatly appreciate comments:

 

a. do you think it is silly to give up weak 2-suiters to use these bids for 16-18 2 suiters ?

 

b. if I should employ them as strong, how do you suggest to handle interference ?

E.g.

 

Example 1

 

2S/2NT-(3X)-?

pass = ?

X = ?

3 of a suit = ?

cuebid = ?

 

Assume opps are Non Vuln:

If X by responder is penalty, should opener with a singleton in opps suit leave it in or pull ?

Not many times we'll get rich doubling them at 3 level when we have a 18-18 55 or better.

 

Example 2

2S/2NT-(4X)-?

 

Same questions as example 1.

 

Thanks !!

[Cowology]

If you were suggesting using 2D & 2H I would not have any real big problem with the concept, but I simply can't see such a rare hand (no matter how it eases the burden on that particular sequence) justifying the use of a 2S bid which should be used as frequently as is reasonably possible for some form of pre-emption. I still prefer to use 2S to show either a weak 2 suiter, or a broken 6-8 card minor... or even just a standard Wk 2.

[Chamaco]

If you were suggesting using 2D & 2H I would not have any real big problem with the concept, but I simply can't see such a rare hand (no matter how it eases the burden on that particular sequence) justifying the use of a 2S bid which should be used as frequently as is reasonably possible for some form of pre-emption.

 

I see your point, and it certainly has merit.

 

One of my considerations was the following:

it is true that weak 2-suiters are more frequent; but it is also true that many times weak 2-suiters are misused, e.g. the bids are used with bad hands which will not buy the contract and opps will play double dummy.

If we exclude the hands which only superficially are suited for 2-suited bids, the frequency of their occurrence- while still superior to 16-18 2 suiters - lowers down.

 

On the other hand, removing strong 2-suiters from 1C greatly impacts ALL the 1C structure: it is easier to manage opps ovetrcalls and preempts, and nail them when they get frisky.

 

In any case, there is a way to improve the frequency of 2S and 2NT as strong 2 suiters openings: if I define them in terms of 4-4.5 LOSERS and not of hcp, I will also include more distributional hands, even if < 16 hcp (usually 65/66).

E.g. all the following qualify to 4 loser requirement:

AKxxx-AKxxx-xx-A

KQJxx-Axxxx-Ax-A

KQJxxx-KQJxx-x-x

AQJxxx-KQxxx-x-x

 

I wonder if also including more preemptive openings which still comply to the 4-loser requirement will work (usually 66 or better), e.g.:

 

QJTxxx-KQxxxx-x- void

Axxxxx-KQxxxx-x- void

 

 

By immediately bidding the strength in terms of loser, we anticipate opps intervention, with both the 16-18 55 and with the <16 65/66s (usually complying the 4-losers requirement), improving the frequency of occurrence.

[Free]

I don't see any advantage of opening 17-20 HCP 4441 hands with 2♦. Why don't you open them 1♣? If you would do so, you could easily use 2♦ for 2 suiters:

 

2♦ - 2M

?

 

2NT = ♣ and a higher (3♣ obligated, opener bids his 2nd suit)

3♣ = ♦ and a higher (3♦ obligated, opener bids his 2nd suit)

3♦ = Majors

 

AND you can use 2♠ and 2NT for weak hands :(

[Chamaco]

I don't see any advantage of opening 17-20 HCP 4441 hands with 2♦.  Why don't you open them 1♣?

 

The point of having a specific bid for 4441 hands 17-20 is the following:

 

1) we do not use relays "à la Moscito or Viking club or Symmetric relay", only exception is opener's 1H rebid after 1D negartive response, see point 3 below;

2) after 1C:1D, if opener bids a suit it MUST be 5+, not 4+

3) 1C:1D:1H is artificial, 19/20+

4) 1C:1D: ? now 1S/2C/2D/2H are natural, minimum 16-18. 2S/3C/3D/3H are used to show a self sufficient one suiter.

 

 

Given the above points, hlding 17-20 hcp 4441, opener has an awkward rebid after 1D , and NO, after 1D response, I do not want to rebid 1S or 2m as 4 card suit, nor give up the artificial 1H rebid for non-minimum 1C opening :-)

[luke warm]

mauro, we use 1c then 2d as showing 3 suited hands, 17+...

1c/1d/2d or 1c/1s/2d

[Chamaco]

mauro, we use 1c then 2d as showing 3 suited hands, 17+...

1c/1d/2d or 1c/1s/2d

So, after 1C:1D, how do you show a 16/17 hcp hand diamonds-based (e.g. a hand that does not want to play at the 3 level opposite a broke pard) ?

[mike777]

16-17 with one suited hand =2d opening

16-17 with 2 suited minor hand =1D.

 

With super 17 may consider opening 1C.

[luke warm]

So, after 1C:1D, how do you show a 16/17 hcp hand diamonds-based (e.g. a hand that does not want to play at the 3 level opposite a broke pard) ?

 

you mean if opener bids 1c first? after 1c : 1d, opener must bid 3c or 3d with a one suited minor hand, as both 2c and 2d have other meanings... however, in this bidding it would tend to be a true one suiter, because a 4 card major is bid first, regardless of its strength (or should be)