Should Anyone Bid

[eagles123]

or should it pass out? Dealer South, it's Matchpoints and NS white EW red

 

other detail if it matters: everyone on the table plays weak NT 4 card majors

 

 

 

thanks,

 

Eagles[hv=pc=n&s=sakjhk9754d72c976&w=s754h62dak4ckj532&n=sqt3hjt8dj986ca84&e=s9862haq3dqt53cqt]399|300[/hv]

[Codo]

Please try the hand generaotr, much easier to read and to follow. Thank you. But I had passed all 4 hands. The south hand is closest to an opening, make it Akx, KJxxx,xx,xxx and I would...

[mikl_plkcc]

South has a marginal hand, all the others are not good openings. (I would upgrade South to 12 due to concentrated values in major suits)

[eagles123]

Please try the hand generaotr, much easier to read and to follow. Thank you. But I had passed all 4 hands. The south hand is closest to an opening, make it Akx, KJxxx,xx,xxx and I would...

 

I have edited to be shown by the hand generator.

[TylerE]

I'd open 1♥ as south and 1♣ as west. Clear 3rd seat non-opening for N, even clearer 4th seat passout for E.

[Cyberyeti]

The one I'd be most likely to open is 1N by W, by system I would have to open the south hand 1N if I was going to open it, so would not.

[Hanoi5]

I'd rather open South's hand than West's, especially at this vulnerability. I don't blame them for not opening though.

[Cyberyeti]

I'd rather open South's hand than West's, especially at this vulnerability. I don't blame them for not opening though.

I missed the vul, saw all 4 hands white, yes I'd probably pass this out then.

[eagles123]

The one I'd be most likely to open is 1N by W, by system I would have to open the south hand 1N if I was going to open it, so would not.

 

I was South here and passed as did everyone else on the table. The reason you give is largely the reason I did pass, I guess with a strong NT system you could open 1H and rebid in no trump but with Weak NT either you open a crappy 5 card Heart suit and be forced to rebid them if p bids 2 of a minor, or open 1N which didn't seem like a good alternative.

 

Reason I posted the hand was out of 11 tables only 2 passed out so wanted to check my sanity.

 

Cheers,

 

Eagles

[billw55]

I'd open 1♥ as south and 1♣ as west. Clear 3rd seat non-opening for N, even clearer 4th seat passout for E.

Agree on all counts

[MrAce]

With 4 of me sitting at the table the auction would go like this

 

 

 

[hv=d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1hp2hppdp2sppp]133|100[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

I'd open 1♥ as south and 1♣ as west. Clear 3rd seat non-opening for N, even clearer 4th seat passout for E.

Read the OP, if you play weak NT as specified here, 1♣ not an option W and for many weak NT players, 1♥ not permissible for S, it's P or 1N.

[TylerE]

Why is that? Why I am wanting to open a suit oriented 11 count a 12-14 NT exactly?

[aguahombre]

It truly is a gap in the structure for weak NT players (12-14 or 13-15) not to be able to open 11-count 5-3-3-2

hands 1M when they otherwise would want to do so.

[Cyberyeti]

Why is that? Why I am wanting to open a suit oriented 11 count a 12-14 NT exactly?

Because all balanced hands just good enough to open are opened 1N, means 1♣-1♦-2♣ shows 6, and 1♣-1♥-2♣ is either 5♣/4♦ or 6♣ so you can make some good deductions later on. You can get round this by playing a wide range 1N rebid (12-16 or so) which some do, but we play ours above the range for an opening 1N.

 

It truly is a gap in the structure for weak NT players (12-14 or 13-15) not to be able to open 11-count 5-3-3-2

hands 1M when they otherwise would want to do so.

 

Yes and no, knowing 1♠-2♣-2♠ (not 2/1 GF) shows 6 rather than possibly being a weak no trump also has its pluses.

[billw55]

Yeah I missed the bit about weak NT. I do want to open both hands (south and west) and I object to a system that prevents me. But if I have a hard agreement to not open a balanced 11, I guess I must pass. Likewise if regs prevent it, which I object to in advance just in case :)

[eagles123]

It truly is a gap in the structure for weak NT players (12-14 or 13-15) not to be able to open 11-count 5-3-3-2

hands 1M when they otherwise would want to do so.

 

I have only been playing bridge for a couple of years so this is just my opinion, but for me ACOL is a fantastic system to learn as it is pretty simple: bids mean what they say in general. However, it is not one for use at a higher level: so to say there is a gap in the system doesn't surprise me at all!

 

I hope that in a year or two I am playing at a better level, but I hadn't even played a proper duplicate session 6 months ago so got a way to go!

 

Thanks,

 

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

I have only been playing bridge for a couple of years so this is just my opinion, but for me ACOL is a fantastic system to learn as it is pretty simple: bids mean what they say in general. However, it is not one for use at a higher level: so to say there is a gap in the system doesn't surprise me at all!

 

I hope that in a year or two I am playing at a better level, but I hadn't even played a proper duplicate session 6 months ago so got a way to go!

 

Thanks,

 

Eagles

 

You can plug a lot of the holes in Acol and it's still good to a very decent level. If you want to open balanced 11s, either play an 11-14 1N and play something more sophisticated over it or play 11-13, a wide range 1N rebid and add a point onto what you need to 2/1, we don't bother but decide some 11s are worth 12.

[Zelandakh]

It truly is a gap in the structure for weak NT players (12-14 or 13-15) not to be able to open 11-count 5-3-3-2 hands 1M when they otherwise would want to do so.

If you want to open 11 count 5332 hands then you just re-label the 1NT range as (11)12-14. Just the same as those who open most of their 14 point 5332 hands with a 14+-17 1NT. It is hardly a gap. There are many things wrong with Acol but this is really the least of issues. I also agree with eagles that it is an excellent system for learning the game.

[aguahombre]

If you want to open 11 count 5332 hands then you just re-label the 1NT range as (11)12-14. Just the same as those who open most of their 14 point 5332 hands with a 14+-17 1NT. It is hardly a gap. There are many things wrong with Acol but this is really the least of issues. I also agree with eagles that it is an excellent system for learning the game.

Yes, it is true that if you change your ranges because of a gap there is no longer a gap. thank you for sharing.

 

As a personal preference, I open balanced 11's with a five card major; and if I had to open them 1NT instead of 1M, I wouldn't like it as much.

[Zelandakh]

To each their own. Having played various Weak NT schemes (never 5M332; optional 5M332; (53)(32) but not (52)33; 5♥332 but not 5♠332; any 5M332 except 5=2=3=3; always 5M332) I can say that I have come to the conclusion that the last of these works best, not so much because of the results after a 1NT opening but rather the advantages from elimiating these hand types from the 1M openings. But I do not think it makes a big difference, just as including good 11s in a 12-14 NT does not affect it very much. After all, most 5M332 hands are worth at least as much as the worst 12 point hands without a 5 card suit. And those that are not, I can live with passing.

[aguahombre]

Hopefully, if you extend your 12-14 or 13-15 NT range down to 11, but only with certain 5cM patterns, you fully disclose that fact.

 

Anyway, I was referring to the gap Eagles was lamenting...not the gap you don't have.

[Zelandakh]

I would not recommend beginners extending down to 11+-15 but 11+-14 is fine and can help in learning about evaluating beyond simple Milton count. If I am asked about a bid then I always try to give all information that I have regarding it. It would be nice to say I always got the same treatment in return.

 

I read eagle's post as saying that he would not be surprised to find out that Acol had gaps. It does but elsewhere. As Cyberyeti points out, the majority of these can be dealt with in some way or another as one becomes more advanced. If memory serves, it is not so long ago that a pair was playing an Acol-based system at the Bermuda Bowl, so it is certainly possible to reach a decent level using it.