Weak 1M controlled by Drury

[kgr]

Belgium

A friend a me told that they play:

 

P-1M

2C-2M

 

2C=Drury

2M=Partner you have to pass!!

They can easily psych 1M. When responder has 11 pnts with a 5cM he will still pass.

Is this allowed?

Is it allowed if 1M is alerted with explanation?: often a psych.

Is it allowed without this alert/explanation?

[ArtK78]

Drury is legal. A rebid of 2 of the major showing a weak opening is legal.

 

Drury is essentially the only form of psychic control that is legal. But it is not usually referred to as a psychic control.

[ahydra]

It's not a psyche if they start doing it regularly - it becomes an agreement. And there are normally rules like "you can't agree to open 1M with less than X HCP" (I think X = 9 in the EBU). So they might fall foul of that.

 

If it turns out they don't, then certainly they must alert if their 1M can be very weak.

 

ahydra

[TylerE]

The thing I've never quite understood is this discussion - what exactly does "doing it regularly" mean? Once a session? Once a month? Twice ever?

[gnasher]

Drury is legal. A rebid of 2 of the major showing a weak opening is legal.

 

Drury is essentially the only form of psychic control that is legal.

Which page of the Belgian regulations is that on?

[barmar]

It's not a psyche if they start doing it regularly - it becomes an agreement. And there are normally rules like "you can't agree to open 1M with less than X HCP" (I think X = 9 in the EBU). So they might fall foul of that.

How common is that type of rule? ACBL doesn't have any restriction on how light your natural openings can be, except that if 1NT can be lighter than 10 HCP you can't play any conventional responses and rebids to it. If you routinely open 1 of a suit lighter than 11 HCP you have to pre-alert it, but no one considers that doing it only in 3rd seat constitutes "routinely".

[TylerE]

How common is that type of rule? ACBL doesn't have any restriction on how light your natural openings can be, except that if 1NT can be lighter than 10 HCP you can't play any conventional responses and rebids to it. If you routinely open 1 of a suit lighter than 11 HCP you have to pre-alert it, but no one considers that doing it only in 3rd seat constitutes "routinely".

 

Actually...

 

From the GCC

 

1. Conventions and/or agreements whose primary purpose is to destroy the

opponents’ methods

 

...

 

6. Opening one bids which by partnership agreement could show fewer than 8

HCP. (Not applicable to a psych.)

[Finch]

How common is that type of rule? ACBL doesn't have any restriction on how light your natural openings can be, except that if 1NT can be lighter than 10 HCP you can't play any conventional responses and rebids to it. If you routinely open 1 of a suit lighter than 11 HCP you have to pre-alert it, but no one considers that doing it only in 3rd seat constitutes "routinely".

 

It's in the WBF regulations, for example.

In the EBU, n=8 in 3rd & 4th seat.

[Finch]

Belgium

A friend a me told that they play:

 

P-1M

2C-2M

 

2C=Drury

2M=Partner you have to pass!!

They can easily psych 1M. When responder has 11 pnts with a 5cM he will still pass.

Is this allowed?

Is it allowed if 1M is alerted with explanation?: often a psych.

Is it allowed without this alert/explanation?

 

As has already been said, if it is done regularly it isnt a psyche, it's an agreement.

It's then a matter of the rules on 3rd seat 1M openings in Belgium. In England, you have to agree that a 1M opening shows 4+ cards in the major opened and 8+ HCP in 3rd seat. So you could agree to open 1S on J432 Kx Kx Jxxxx and play 2S over Drury as partner you have to pass, and that is legal (as long as it is disclosed properly). But you can't agree to open 1M on KQJ109 xx xx xxxx, although you could do it as a once off.

[ArtK78]

Which page of the Belgian regulations is that on?

Its on the back of the first page.

[gnasher]

Its on the back of the first page.

You mean the bit that says that psychic controls are Brown Sticker?

[kgr]

It's not a psyche if they start doing it regularly - it becomes an agreement. And there are normally rules like "you can't agree to open 1M with less than X HCP" (I think X = 9 in the EBU). So they might fall foul of that.

 

If it turns out they don't, then certainly they must alert if their 1M can be very weak.

 

ahydra

If they open 1♥ in 3rd hand with f.i.: KJx=x=Qxxx=xxxxx

(Suppose Brown sticker conventions and psyches are allowed).

Given the conditions: one of the players told me that it is a good psych; when partner bids 2C - Drury - then he always has to pass a 2H rebid. They already did this before and opps were surprised that partner passed the 2M with 5c support, 11HCP and extra distribution.

Do you consider this as a partnership agreement or as a psych?

If partnership agreement: what alert (pre-alert) is needed?

[aguahombre]

I would like to know if they still rebid 2H with their 3-1-4-5 six-count when Drury bidder doesn't have 5 hearts.

[gnasher]

If they open 1♥ in 3rd hand with f.i.: KJx=x=Qxxx=xxxxx

(Suppose Brown sticker conventions and psyches are allowed).

Given the conditions: one of the players told me that it is a good psych; when partner bids 2C - Drury - then he always has to pass a 2H rebid. They already did this before and opps were surprised that partner passed the 2M with 5c support, 11HCP and extra distribution.

Do you consider this as a partnership agreement or as a psych?

It's a partnership agreement. They've agreed that the Drury bidder has to pass 2♥ or 2♠, and they've agreed that they do this to cater for a psyche.

[kgr]

I would like to know if they still rebid 2H with their 3-1-4-5 six-count when Drury bidder doesn't have 5 hearts.

How would opener know that drury bidder does not have 5cH?

I assume that any other bid promises extras, so opener does not really have a choice.

[campboy]

I assume that any other bid promises extras, so opener does not really have a choice.

What's wrong with pass?

 

Anyway, 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ shows a minimum. If the minimum they claim they've agreed for 1♥ a) is legal and b) is sufficiently weak that no passed hand will want to be in game opposite it, then that seems fine. But if what they claim is the minimum would likely be enough for game but responder doesn't bid on and it turns out opener has less than the alleged minimum, that's strong evidence of a concealed partnership understanding.

[TylerE]

How would opener know that drury bidder does not have 5cH?

I assume that any other bid promises extras, so opener does not really have a choice.

 

Because for the kind of pairs for whom this sort of thing is an issue, they're opening 11 counts with 5M in 1st/2nd so that's a pretty tiny sliver of their range and less they are using Drury really light.

[aguahombre]

How would opener know that drury bidder does not have 5cH?

rhetorical question, or missing my real point :rolleyes:

[blackshoe]

If I psyched a 1♥ opening on a 3-1-4-5 six count in third seat, I'd pass partner's 2♣ Drury, whatever our agreements said. But then, I have partners who tell me "if you ever psych, I won't play with you again". :blink:

[Cascade]

Drury is legal. A rebid of 2 of the major showing a weak opening is legal.

 

Drury is essentially the only form of psychic control that is legal. But it is not usually referred to as a psychic control.

 

Even in the US under the GCC Drury is not allowed to be used as a psychic control. Here is the relevant wording:

 

Drury

TWO CLUBS OR TWO DIAMONDS response to third or fourth-seat majorsuit

openings asking the quality of the opening bid.

 

Psychic Controls under "Disallowed"

Psychic controls (Includes ANY partnership agreement which, if used in

conjunction with a psychic call, makes allowance for that psych.)

 

The emphasis of "ANY" is theirs not mine.

 

I would rule against any pair who used Drury in conjunction with a psychic call.

 

If it is not a psychic call then it is subject to the other provisions of the regulations, which will often mean that the pair are playing illegal methods.

[blackshoe]

Even in the US under the GCC Drury is not allowed to be used as a psychic control. Here is the relevant wording:

 

Drury

 

 

Psychic Controls under "Disallowed"

 

The emphasis of "ANY" is theirs not mine.

 

I would rule against any pair who used Drury in conjunction with a psychic call.

 

If it is not a psychic call then it is subject to the other provisions of the regulations, which will often mean that the pair are playing illegal methods.

While I agree with your interpretation of the reg, I would point out that this reading effectively makes it illegal to psych a third seat 1M opening if you agree to play Drury.

[ArtK78]

Even in the US under the GCC Drury is not allowed to be used as a psychic control. Here is the relevant wording:

 

Drury

 

 

Psychic Controls under "Disallowed"

 

The emphasis of "ANY" is theirs not mine.

 

I would rule against any pair who used Drury in conjunction with a psychic call.

 

If it is not a psychic call then it is subject to the other provisions of the regulations, which will often mean that the pair are playing illegal methods.

 

Drury is defined not to be a psychic control. My reference to it being a psychic control is practical. It is defined as a bid used to determine if partner's third or fourth seat opening was made on full values. And, as I understand it, the origins of Drury relate to a player who was known for opening extremely light in third seat. After suffering many disasters when first seat had a good passed hand, the partnership decided to use 2♣ as a checkback to determine how sound opener's third seat opening was. To me, this is the very definition of a psychic control. But it is a psychic control that is now sanctioned as allowable under the ACBL convention regulations. And no one refers to Drury as a psychic control.

 

The concept of opening one of a major as a psyche in 3rd seat knowing that partner will use Drury to checkback rather than launch into game is interesting. That would be the classic definition of a psychic control, and would be illegal under ACBL convention regulations. But I have not run across it in my many years of playing. And the opening is not free from risk, as I have seen players leap to game in a major over a 3rd seat opening despite the fact that they play Drury.

[blackshoe]

Drury is defined not to be a psychic control.

By whom? Where can I read this definition?

[Cascade]

The definition of psychic control on the ACBL GCC applies to "ANY partnership agreement". Drury is a partnership agreement so therefore it applies to Drury. If Drury (any agreement) is used in conjunction and makes allowance for that psyche then it is by definition a psychic control.

 

Yes if you open 1M light, light enough so that it is a psyche, and you use Drury then it seems plain that you are disregarding the regulations and that your methods are illegal.

[awm]

A psychic control is a bid that makes special allowances for a psych. The possible psychic control is responder's second pass in the auction:

 

Pass - 1M

2♣! - 2M

Pass

 

If this pass is made on a hand that would reasonably make game opposite most of their agreed third seat 1M opening bids, then responder's pass is allowing for a possible psych, and thus illegal.

 

The point is that it's okay to psych 1M in third seat. It's okay to psych 1M in third seat even if you play Drury. It's not okay to psych 1M in third seat and have a subsequent call that basically announces "I psyched" and forces partner to pass on hands that seem really good opposite a normal 3rd seat 1M opening.