What's the Difference?

[awm]

What's the meaning of the following actions after RHO opens 4♠:

 

1. Jump to six of a suit

2. 5NT

3. 5♠

4. 4NT, followed by a raise to six

5. 4NT, followed by 5♠

6. 4NT, followed by 5NT

7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣

8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit

[gnasher]

1. Jump to six of a suit

One-suited slam-drive.

 

2. 5NT

Three-suited (this may not be standard).

 

3. 5♠

Undiscussed it shows hearts and a minor, but that overlaps with 4NT. Maybe it should be a one-suited slam-drive with first-round spade control?

 

4. 4NT, followed by a raise to six

To play, with a two-suiter.

 

5. 4NT, followed by 5♠

Grand slam-try agreeing the last-bid suit, with spade control.

 

6. 4NT, followed by 5NT

Grand slam-try agreeing the last-bid suit, without spade control.

Edit: or maybe this should be pick-a-slam, with something like five of the suit partner bid and six/seven good ones elsewhere. eg with AK AKJ10xx AQ10xx we want to play clubs opposite 2=3 in the minors, but diamonds opposite equal length.

 

7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣

One-suited slam-try in hearts.

 

8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit

Slam-drive with the two unbid suits.

Edited June 12, 2013 by gnasher

[PhilKing]

 

 

7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣

One-suited slam-try in hearts.

 

 

Shouldn't a direct 5♥ be stronger, lest partner respond 5♦ over 4NT?

[gnasher]

Shouldn't a direct 5♥ be stronger, lest partner respond 5♦ over 4NT?

Yes, but I've never had the courage to agree this with anyone.

[Zelandakh]

I think the simplest idea is to use 5♠ (immediate or delayed) to show extra strength and channel all 2-suiters through 4NT.

 

1. Jump to six of a suit

 

GOSH

 

 

2. 5NT

 

3-suited

 

 

3. 5♠

 

1-suited grand try (if hearts then no spade loser)

 

 

4. 4NT, followed by a raise to six

 

2-suiter

 

 

5. 4NT, followed by 5♠

 

2-suited grand try agreeing suit bid

 

 

6. 4NT, followed by 5NT

 

2-suited offering a choice between the suit bid and another

 

 

7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣

 

Edit: (brain fart) the weakest way of bidding hearts

 

8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit

 

lowest unbid suit = 2-suiter with the unbid suits

6♥ = one-suited grand try with a spade loser

 

--

 

Some other options might be to use 5♠ to differentiate the spade position...

 

1. Jump to six of a suit

 

GOSH with spade loser

 

 

2. 5NT

 

3-suited

 

 

3. 5♠

 

GOSH without spade loser

 

 

4. 4NT, followed by a raise to six

 

2-suiter

 

 

5. 4NT, followed by 5♠

 

2-suited grand try without spade loser agreeing suit bid

 

 

6. 4NT, followed by 5NT

 

2-suited grand try with spade loser agreeing suit bid

 

 

7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣

 

Edit: (brain fart) the weakest way of bidding hearts

 

 

8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit

 

lowest unbid suit = 2-suiter with the unbid suits

 

--

 

...or to use Ken's 1♠ - 2♠ scheme at the 4 level:-

 

X = takeout or minors

4NT = simple overcall in an unknown suit

5m = hearts + m

5♥ = 1-suited slam try

 

Extending this:

4NT followed by 6 of a minor is to play (equivalent of an immediate jump to 6)

4NT followed by 6♥ is a 1-suited grand try with a spade loser

4NT followed by 5♠ is a 1-suited grand try (equivalent of an immediate 5♠)

5♠ is a grand try with the minors or a 3-suited hand (ie a strong double)

5NT is a grand try with hearts and a minor

6m is hearts and a minor

6♥ is to play

--

[PhilKing]

1. Jump to six of a suit

 

The only way.

 

2. 5NT

 

♥ + minor, longer minor

 

3. 5♠

 

♥ + minor

 

4. 4NT, followed by a raise to six

 

Both minors. I never have hearts with a very strong hand this way, since partner needs to know which cards he needs for grand.

 

5. 4NT, followed by 5♠

 

Also both minors. I need to tidy this bit up, since we could need a major suit ace. But 4. and 5. are basically the same strength-wise, in that driving a slam is by definition a GS try.

 

6. 4NT, followed by 5NT

 

Pick a minor - we are stronger in the other minor.

 

7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣

 

This is the weaker way of bidding 5♥ - a direct 5♥ is strong.

 

8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit

 

To play - not choice. Partner's only alternative option is to raise. Typically, we hope partner is filling out the suit he just bid, and we have just bid slam in our solid suit. Example I gave in other thread was: ♠-♥A♦AKQJTxx♣ATxxx which bids 4NT and then 6♦ over 5♣. Unless I dream up something specific, 4NT then 6♥ DNE.

 

Whilst 4NT is often based on a competitive hand with hearts and a minor, my agreement that moving promises both minors helps partner know what the hell is going on. Monsters with hearts and a minor have to bid 5♠ or 5NT immediately. Bear in mind that 3rd seat will often raise spades when we have a freak, so not overloading 4NT is important.

[Cascade]

Our discussion was:

 

1. Jump to six of a suit

 

To play. Could be a stretch. Partner needs a rock to raise.

 

2. 5NT

 

Two-suited invitational to seven

 

3. 5♠

 

Single-suited better than a jump to six

 

4. 4NT, followed by a raise to six

 

To play. Could be a stretch.

 

5. 4NT, followed by 5♠

 

Still could be a stretch but guarantees first round control.

 

6. 4NT, followed by 5NT

 

Still stretching but doubt about denomination

 

7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣

 

Forcing two suiter with six hearts.

 

8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit

 

Extra distribution but could be a stretch. Compare with 5NT which has less clear direction.

[nige1]

What's the meaning of the following actions after RHO opens 4♠:

IMO

1. Jump to six of a suit: Natural.
2. 5NT: Two-suiter, Grand-slam try.
3. 5♠: Two-suiter with lower-ranking suit better or longer.
4. 4NT, followed by a raise to six: 4N asks for better minor and the raise is natural.
5. 4NT, followed by 5♠: Three-suiter.
6. 4NT, followed by 5NT: Two-suiter in the other suits.
7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣: Two-suiter with longer or better ♥.
8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit. Natural.

[gnasher]

Is it sensible to try to play the same structure after 4♠-dbl-pass? For example, using PhilKing's methods, most of the bids can be translated sensibly:

 

1. Jump to six of a suit = to play

2. 5NT = hearts with a minor, 4-5 or 4-6

3. 5♠ = hearts + minor, equal length or longer hearts

4. 4NT, followed by a raise to six = both minors

5. 4NT, followed by 5♠ = both minors, grand-slam try

6. 4NT, followed by 5NT = pick a minor, 5-4 or 6-4 with the other minor

7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣ = to play (weaker than direct 5♥)

8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit = ?

[MrAce]

Is it sensible to try to play the same structure after 4♠-dbl-pass? For example, using PhilKing's methods, most of the bids can be translated sensibly:

 

1. Jump to six of a suit = to play

 

8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit = ?

 

 

Just like #1 but inviting to grand and setting this suit as trumps ?

[JLOGIC]

Shouldn't a direct 5♥ be stronger, lest partner respond 5♦ over 4NT?

 

I play this in auctions like 4S X p, but in this auction I don't think it's true. LHO has not bid yet and is not that unlikely to raise over 4N. I'd rather get my hearts in with a 1 suited heart hand and guess the level than have it go 4S 4N 5S X p ? or something and I have 7 hearts and a not great hand, that just seems like a possible disaster waiting to happen.

[awm]

For what it's worth, I think Sam and my agreements are:

 

Jump to 6-suit = natural, guarantees first-round spade control

5♠ = any single-suited, without first-round spade control

4NT = any two-suited

... followed by 5♠ = agrees the suit partner selected, first-round control of spade

... followed by raise to 6 = natural, denies first-round control of spade or perhaps "no interest in grand opposite pd who couldn't bid more than 5x"

... followed by new suit = the other two suits, if not the cheapest correction then slam-going with significant preference for the bid suit

... followed by 5NT = the other two suits, no significant preference

5NT = choice of all three suits (rare)

[PhilKing]

I play this in auctions like 4S X p, but in this auction I don't think it's true. LHO has not bid yet and is not that unlikely to raise over 4N. I'd rather get my hearts in with a 1 suited heart hand and guess the level than have it go 4S 4N 5S X p ? or something and I have 7 hearts and a not great hand, that just seems like a possible disaster waiting to happen.

 

Yep - I am booting this one for the final draft. The trouble is, I will end up with 5♥ over 5♣ as a GS try with both minors, else the auction does not stack up. It must show 0355 bringing hearts into the frame - you know it makes sense!

[gnasher]

How often do you actually bid a grand slam after the start (4♠) 4NT-5x ? I don't think I have ever done so, and in fact I can't remember even making a grand-slam try.

[PhilKing]

I've done a search (including equivalent 4♥ sequences) of my top-level hands database which now has over 20k hands in it (including the recent legendary Bathurst demolition of North American bridge), and all the auctions are super-rare:

 

1. Jump to six of a suit

 

DNE

 

2. 5NT

 

DNE

 

3. 5♠

 

DNE

 

4. 4NT, followed by a raise to six

 

DNE (once in competition by Versace for a cheap 6/5 sacrifice).

 

5. 4NT, followed by 5♠

 

DNE

 

6. 4NT, followed by 5NT

 

DNE

 

7. 4NT, followed by bidding 5♥ over 5♣

 

DNE

 

8. 4NT, followed by six of a new suit

 

DNE

 

Conclusion:

 

Any gumph that is not analogous to other situations should be incinerated.