Happy with this auction?

[MickyB]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa74hakdkqj5ca742&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p2n(20-21)p3dp3hp3nppp]133|200|Would you have bid differently at any point? Any call other than 3H would have shown a good hand for hearts.[/hv]

[paulg]

I'd have upgraded to show 22 points, although K&R says I'm wrong, otherwise I'm happy.

[Bussy]

I'd have upgraded to show 22 points, although K&R says I'm wrong, otherwise I'm happy.

 

+1 upgrade for ♦-quality?, like it...

[gnasher]

I'm never happy to have to start the auction at the three-level.

 

The auction looks normal, but there's something to be said for converting 3NT to 4♥. That gains when we need to set up the heart suit in 3NT, and partner has only one entry, and we don't have four losers in 4♥. It loses when either the hearts were already cashing and 4♥ has four losers, or we can make 3NT without using the hearts and the trump losers mean 4♥ goes down.

 

The lack of spots in the minors makes that last chance less likely than normal. I'm sure I'd have passed at the table, but on this particular hand I think it's better to bid 4♥.

 

Edit: I wouldn't consider upgrading. The AK doubleton more than counterbalances the positive features.

[Cyberyeti]

 

Edit: I wouldn't consider upgrading. The AK doubleton more than counterbalances the positive features.

I like the honour structure, all aces or touching honours so I think that is worth 22, but the AK tight is a minus so for me it's a pretty solid 21.5, I'm relatively happy either way playing 20-21, I would upgrade playing what I play which is good 19-21.

 

I would pull to 4♥, there is a danger you will never get to some or all of partner's hearts in 3N.

[rogerclee]

I would bid 4H, I think the threat of having an inadequate black suit stopper and not being able to get to partner's hand is greater than the threat of having too many trump losers and/or 9 tricks being the limit.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa74hakdkqj5ca742&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p2n(20-21)p3dp3hp3nppp]133|200|Would you have bid differently at any point? Any call other than 3H would have shown a good hand for hearts.[/hv]

Convinced by other posters :)

• Happy with 2N opener.
• Happy with 3♥ acceptance.
• Now, over 3N, 4♥ = 10, Pass = 9, 4♦ (trick source) = 6. 4♣ (control) = 4.

[Fluffy]

I've read in the past that with AK stiff you should always convert to 4♥, this hand must be the best example for that tactic

[dake50]

I'd have upgraded to show 22 points, although K&R says I'm wrong, otherwise I'm happy.

 

*** Rosenkrantz had upgrades for more than expected controls.

2Nt expects 5 controls; having 8, I'd start 2C.

How can partner envision slam even with DA + K+ K?

He expects we are at 8-9 controls, NOT 12!

Not only would I get to 4H, but I must Q-bid 4C on the way.

[MickyB]

I've read in the past that with AK stiff you should always convert to 4♥, this hand must be the best example for that tactic

 

I quite like this rule, assuming it only applies after a 2N opening not a 1N opening.

 

4H was successful on this hand, partner held xxx JT987 A9 JTx, so 4H was massively better. Trumps were 5-1 but it was still worth a swing when four rounds of diamonds stood up.

[MrAce]

I've read in the past that with AK stiff you should always convert to 4♥, this hand must be the best example for that tactic

 

It's in one of the books of Marshall Miles. Someone mentioned that in the past in one of these forums of BBF if i remember correctly, he was also refering M.M as the source.

[benlessard]

I think treating this hand as 22 is slightly better but surely 2nt is ok. I would never have tought about correcting to 4H here and im very curious about this. I hope some1 sim this to find out if 4H is better.

[gszes]

i expect to take 6 tricks opposite nothing and have a

great shot at 9 opposite xxxxx in either minor and with

so many controls just plain too good for a mere 2n

(20-21) opener.

 

If responder had a cruddy 5 card major and enough to

go to 3n they would have used stayman to make sure

they had a 9 card fit before playing in their cruddy suit.

That means thei hearts are reasonable quality and

converting 3n to 4h makes a good deal of sense.

 

I will admit I do not see any real value in cuebidding

except for the idea this hand is too good for a 2n opener

anyway sigh. I p had slam aspirations surely they would

have at least invited. No sense letting the opps know just

how good your hand is with little to be gained.

[JLOGIC]

I would bid this way. I would consider upgrading but wouldn't (no spot cards kinda sucks, I feel like I'm a ten short but obv I have a great hand for a suit slam), I would not consider bidding 4H.

[PhilKing]

I'm betting removing would be a really big loser in a sim, so I guess that means I am happy with the auction.

[MickyB]

Anyone care to do a sim?

[P_Marlowe]

looks reasonable.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

The bidding is fine. I would not pull to 4H. Bidding 4C is ridiculous by the way. Partner was happy to play in game only, so why pinpoint cards for the opponents? If you are going to pull, then 4D to show a very good 4 card suit has some merit in case pd has some 5431 hand and might contemplate a D game, (slam?) instead eg

x QJxxx Axxx xxx

[neilkaz]

I'd not upgrade. OK I have one more ace than expected for a 21 count, but where's my expected 10, what about my expected 9?

 

OK my D are nice but with 21 HCP I have to have some nice suit.

 

I have no 5 card suit and AK tight has to be enough of a downgrade to cancel out the other factors. If I upgrade to 2C I will then show 22-24 in many systems and that really scares me as we may get overboard.

 

As for pulling 3NT I'd like to see a sim and perhaps MP vs IMP is different from the sim results. That being said, I pass and say GLP.

[inquiry]

I would pass. Let me propose an alternative question.

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sj92hakdakj42c875&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1np2dp2hp2np?]133|200|Would you correct to 3♥ with this holding[/hv]

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sq852hakda98ckj42&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1np2dp2hp2np?]133|200|Would you correct to 3NT or 4H (or pass or bid 3H I guess if you are not interested in game).

 

I think no one would be bidding hearts on these two hands as South. I would think the same rules apply to hand in question after the 2NT opening, but of course if partner hitched a long time before bidding 3NT... WELL, that would be a horse of a different color. Of course, should you bid 4♥'s in that case, expect to be ruled against if 4♥ makes.

 

I am not up to running a simulation today, but I did do a very quick bridgebrowser check for 2NT-P-3D-P-3NT where the 2NT bidder had a 4432 with specifically AK doubleton in hearts and responder was balanced or semi-balanced with exactly five hearts. Passing 3NT was the clear winner at both matchpoints and imps. I did not examine the hands, just average results.. no double dummy play was studied... just how people faired. The sample size was small, 77 deals -- each deal played 16 times (a total of 1136 different auctions). In this study, the scores for 3NT and 4♥ are shown. Of course, other people reached different contracts on the same hands... slams, partscores, even other suits. 3NT was a clear winner, averaging in this LIMITED study +1.46 imps, and 54.2% matchpoints. 4H averaged +0.26 imps and 44.7% matchpoints. The sample size is too small, plus, with no constraints but the auction, a lot of people way overbid either not stopping lower when they should or going too high. In fact, less than 1/2 the auctions ended in either 3NT or 4♥, so it is not clear how useful this is. I did look at 2N-3h-3S-bid game and it followed the same trend and the same preference for 3NT to be right.

[/hv]

[gnasher]

I would think the same rules apply to hand in question after the 2NT opening

I wouldn't. The main reason for choosing to play 4♥ in the 2NT auction is that we can use a ruff as an entry to dummy to cash the hearts. In the 1NT auction, dummy will have more high cards, so this is less of a consideration.

[inquiry]

ok i tried a simulation using the south hand. The constraints i placed on the north hand was 5-10 hcp, 2-3 spades, 5 hearts, 2+ in each minor. i ffigured no 4 spades due to lack of stayma followed by smolen. i look at 1000 unique deals and aanalyzed them by double play using deal masterpro.

 

The results were close but a "big" advantage seemed to be clear at matchponts or imps to the pass.

 

FIRST OF THE 1000 HANDS, 75% (751) made four hearts, while 80% (803) made 3NT. There is no worrying about overtricks in those numbers, clearly your game would be more likely to make in notrump than in hearts.

 

At matchpoints, it is a closer decision. Here you would have to take into acount the number of times you took one or more tricks in hearts than in nortump.. for example, while 80% of the hands took 9 tricks or more at notrump, 94% took nine tricks (or more) in hearts. Let's just compare the number of hand that took exactly 10 tricks in hearts to the number of hands that took exactly 10 tricks in notrump. This iis 751 in hearts to 526 in notrump. Clearly hearts took more tricks, on average, than notrump. The problem in figuring out which is better at matchpoint is that when there is a tie, notrump wins. So one might assume (this is not 100% right) that the same hands taht took 10 tricks in notrump took at least 10 tricks in hearts. So I compared all 1000 notrump contracts to 1000 heart contracts, and found that notrump took the same number or more tricks than hearts on 565 of the 1000 hands. That means notrump was a better spot 56.5% of the time. There were times when hearts took two or three tricks but at matchpoint it is the frequency.

 

I admit my constraints are not ideal perhaps. I should not allow an opponent to have 8 spades for instance. But these numbers support fairly losely the numbers i quoted from bridgebrowser (This was way more deasls, and used double dummy play and defense). In the bridgebrowser study, 3NT won by about an imp and a quarter over 4H. Somehow that seems a little high for a 5% difference in making. The matchpoint difference was 54% here is is 56.5% "better". Anyway, others can try thiis hand and simulations to see what they find. In the simulations i did, there was some huge swings between the number of tricks taken in notrump and hearts on the hands.

[neilkaz]

I wouldn't. The main reason for choosing to play 4♥ in the 2NT auction is that we can use a ruff as an entry to dummy to cash the hearts. In the 1NT auction, dummy will have more high cards, so this is less of a consideration.

Agreed completely and I clearly think there's a big difference between a 1NT opening and 2NT opening with this hand.

[gnasher]

The constraints i placed on the north hand was 5-10 hcp, 2-3 spades, 5 hearts, 2+ in each minor.

Suppose that partner opened 2NT and you had one of these hands:

x Qxxxx xxx Kxxx

Kxx Jxxxx xxx xx

x Jxxxx xx QJxxx

 

What would you do?

[MickyB]

Thanks Ben. Looks to me like 4H would come out on top once hcp+shape requirements were relaxed as per Andy's post.