Exciting hand from county match

[Cyberyeti]

This wild board came up today, lots of ways it can be bid.

 

You hold:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sahqdakjt654ck964]133|100[/hv] vul NS teams

 

Partner opens 1♥, RHO bids 3♠, your bid ?

 

If you X

LHO bids 4♠ Partner bids 6♣ pass to you, for subsequent actions, see bonus spoiler

 

 

If you bid 4♦

RHO will bid 4♠, god knows what partner does now, his hand is void, AKJ6432, Q9, AQ87, any suggestions ?

 

 

Bonus spoiler:

If you pass 6♣, I suspect you play there, if you bid 7♣, LHO bids 7♠, partner doubles which tells you nothing other than that he doesn't have the A♠ pass to you

 

 

For those of you who doubled, partner's hand is in the 4♦ spoiler, results were all over the place our auction was:

1♥-(3♠)-X-(4♠)-6♣-7♣-(7♠)-X-7N for 2220, clubs were 3-2, the preemptor was void in ♦, they were losing 5 tricks in spades, 7♥/♣ make from S only, 7♦/N make from either side

 

[inquiry]

I double 3♠ to show an offensive hand with uncertain cl ear direction (and no real heart support). I can't even consider bidding 4♦ because for me that is a fit nonjump (taken a long time ago from Robson/Segal 1M-jump overcall-new suit fit nonjump). So this gets me into the spoiler after the double. I will put my answer in the spoiler, and I hope somewhere in my answer, I can tell you what is wrong with all of your (the original poster's) follow up auction and why.

 

Bidding 7NT over 7♠ with your hand is certainly odds on favorite based on the offensive hand your partner needs for his leap to 6♣. For instance, over 6♣ you can be certain of a couple of things. First partner has the ♥A and the ♣AQ at a minimum. In addition, he has more stuff.... but just those three cards are enough to give you some play for grand slam. So like you I am going to get us to a grand. However, let's be bridge players, let's try not to avoid he blind guess. We can look at the vul and ask ourselves, "what are the odds the opponents are going to bid 7♠ over 7♣ at these colors?" It is not 100%, but is has to be more than 50%. So you want to consult with your partner about what to do if they bid 7♠.

 

The only way to get useful info is to tell partner right now, that you are considering 7NT over 7♠ and you want his input into the decision. How do you do this? You bid 6♠ right now. Obviously 6♠ is forcing to grand slam, but it alerts partner to the fact that you want feedback on whether to go to 7NT or not. Since YOU are considering 7NT (only contract above 7♠ your 6♠ bid could be looking for), you are promising the ♠A. Let's look at several potential auctions after your 6♠ bid.

 

Auction A

 

6♠ - X - ?

 

Auction B.

 

6♠ - pass - ?

 

On auction A, your LHO has made a mistake. His double gives your partner quite a few ways to show his hands. He can pass, he can redouble, he can bid 7♣, and of course, he can bid 6 or 7 NT. Let's look at what he would do with different hands.

 

1. ♠x ♥AJTxxx ♦xx ♣AQJxx - 7♣ unlikely to be this weak

 

2. ♠x ♥AKxxxx ♦xx ♣AQxx - 7♣ he could have this

 

3. ♠x ♥AKJTxx ♦Qx ♣AQxx - PASS

 

4. ♠x ♥AKJxxx ♦xx ♣AQJx - Pass

 

5. ♠- ♥AKxxxx ♦x ♣AQxxx - redouble

 

6. ♠- ♥AKTxxx ♦Qx ♣AQJxx - 6NT

 

7. ♠- ♥AKJTx ♦Qx ♣AQJxxx - 7NT

 

He is unlikley to hold hand 1, unless he is a wild gambler. But if he did, he would bid 7♣ over the double. Hand 2 is a little more likely, here he would bid 7♣ as well. The two pass hands, partner is showing more than what he considers a minimum. If he considers either one of them a minimum for his leap to 6♣ then he would of course pass the double.. this is just to give you an idea of the flavor of the bidding. The redouble hand shows a hand he was quite happy to bid 6♣ with. A six notrump bid would be a little stronger than the redouble or pass, and of course if partner is golden with a sixth club and a strong hand, he might not even wait for them to save in 7♠ and he will bid 7NT himself (don't ask if you don't want him to bid 7NT with hands like this. Will partner be worried you are off an ace? No. You have forces to grand slam and shown the ♠A. IF your off an ace, you are off an ace. He will not worry that he only has two.

 

Now on auction B. Here the hands that passed, redoubled, or bid 7♣ before all bid 7♣ now. The hand that bid 6 and 7 NT still bid 6 and 7 NT. Over 6NT, you will bid 7♣ or 7NT as you wish (I would bid 7NT). Over the 7♣ bid you will pass. When your LHO saves at 7♠ your partner would clearly double with hand 1 & 2 showing a poor offensive hand for the auction to date. With the other hands were we are not already in 7NT, he will pass the buck back to us by passing over 7♠ and with our hand, we will bid 7NT.

 

Now this looks like some crazy wild science, but bridge is a partnership game. You will "Guess right" a lot more often if you don't try to battle the opponents singlehanded. Getting your partner involved in making the decision is the right approach... at least for me.

 

[Cyberyeti]

 

The only way to get useful info is to tell partner right now, that you are considering 7NT over 7♠ and you want his input into the decision. How do you do this? You bid 6♠ right now. Obviously 6♠ is forcing to grand slam, but it alerts partner to the fact that you want feedback on whether to go to 7NT or not. Since YOU are considering 7NT (only contract above 7♠ your 6♠ bid could be looking for), you are promising the ♠A. Let's look at several potential auctions after your 6♠ bid.

 

<snip>

 

 

All this is irrelevant, if you bid 6♠ anybody with red blood in their veins will bid 7♠ over 6♠ to remove all this science, and now partner doesn't know whether you were going to bid 7♣/♦ (or possibly ♥ but unlikely) and has nothing to go on at all.

[gnasher]

I bid 4♦, because that's what I was dealt. When LHO bids 4♠, I think partner will make a forcing pass, though he could bid 5NT pick-a-slam instead. Opposite the forcing pass, I'll bid 6♦ and he'll raise to 7.

[cherdano]

Sorry, FNJ is insane in this auction.

And this is an easy 4♦ bid first round.

[Cyberyeti]

I bid 4♦, because that's what I was dealt. When LHO bids 4♠, I think partner will make a forcing pass, though he could bid 5NT pick-a-slam instead. Opposite the forcing pass, I'll bid 6♦ and he'll raise to 7.

This is potentially interesting, not sure what happens if LHO bids 7♠ over 6♦, the difference between what happened at the table and this is that you sort of confirm 3 or 4 club tricks on the way at the table, so probably only one of the red suits has to run.

[Codo]

I do not play FNJ here either, so I try 4 ♦. Over partners 5 NT I try 7♣, because this may be the second suit he tries to show..

[Zelandakh]

How does: 1♥ - (3♠) - 4♦ - (4♠); 5♠ - 6♠; 7♦ - 7NT grab you? Or 1♥ - (3♠) - 4♦ - (4♠); 5♠ - 6♠ - (7♠); P - 7NT. I am not sure it is possible to give truly unbiased auctions on deals like this seeing both hands though. It is a bit like Jim Bowen's "Take a look at what you could have won" line in Bullseye.

[inquiry]

All this is irrelevant, if you bid 6♠ anybody with red blood in their veins will bid 7♠ over 6♠ to remove all this science, and now partner doesn't know whether you were going to bid 7♣/♦ (or possibly ♥ but unlikely) and has nothing to go on at all.

 

 

And if they do bid 7♠ over 6♠ it does't change much at all. Your 6♠ bid invited, and partner now still has pass to show a better than go hand. The only difference is the hand he would have bid 6NT with he has to decide if that is a psss or a direct 7NT bid. The 7NT hand still bids 7NT,and all the hands that pass would still pass. It is possible a hand that you would have bid 7♣ directly over 6♠ (instead of focing pass) but then pass over 7♠ would double 7♠ now... but those are all close decisions anyway. (to not show extra offense first then to show extra later)...

[the_clown]

As others pointed out 4♦ is quite obvious, after that it will probably go 4♠-5♠-5N-7♦-7♠-X-7N.

[gszes]

4d is indeed an easy call but is it the best? We do not have much space and

what is a minimum hand required to bid 4d (asuming it is natural in your system)?

xx x AKxxxxxx xx or is this a 5d bid or a pass. The problem is there is way too much

difference between a minimum for 4d and our actual blockbuster and we have to

bid at the 4 level. The second problem is 4d makes it seem like we have a hand that

will only play well in diamonds. A 4d bid has way too much chance of burying the

club suit. This makes a case for x vs 4s since converting 4c/5c to 4d/5d to show will

come a lot closer to describing this powerhouse.

 

After our choice of x the 6c bid from partner gives us a great opportunity to try for a grand

(7c or 7n) and that is by bidding 6s (as per) INQUIRY that offers us a pretty darn good

chance of wisey choosing btn 7c or 7n or 7sx,

[gnasher]

what is a minimum hand required to bid 4d (asuming it is natural in your system)?

xx x AKxxxxxx xx or is this a 5d bid or a pass.

 

That's a 5♦ bid. If it isn't, what would you need to bid 5♦?

[cherdano]

The second problem is 4d makes it seem like we have a hand that will only play well in diamonds.

What a horrible thing to imply with AKJT-7th and K963 in the minors!

[Cyberyeti]

What a horrible thing to imply with AKJT-7th and K963 in the minors!

Well it's fairly horrible opposite xx, AKJ10xx, x, AQJ10 where you want to play in either of the other two suits or NT but not diamonds.

[PhilKing]

Well it's fairly horrible opposite xx, AKJ10xx, x, AQJ10 where you want to play in either of the other two suits or NT but not diamonds.

 

Noone is putting a gun to partner's head. It's not as if he will raise diamonds with that. My choice over 4♠ - Pass (or 4♥ if they don't raise).

[Cyberyeti]

Noone is putting a gun to partner's head. It's not as if he will raise diamonds with that. My choice over 4♠ - Pass (or 4♥ if they don't raise).

 

Yes but say he has one of the two suits slightly weaker, AKxxxx/AQJx or AKJxxx/AJ10x are you going to get to the right place if you bid 4♦ ?

[Finch]

I would also bid 4D because that's my 7-card suit. I doubt I want to play in a 4-4 club fit once a lot of spade bidding happens. Take the actual hand as a good example. Clubs is by far the worst grand.

Yes, I can construct hands where it's right to play in clubs, but a lot more where it's wrong.

[Cyberyeti]

I would also bid 4D because that's my 7-card suit. I doubt I want to play in a 4-4 club fit once a lot of spade bidding happens. Take the actual hand as a good example. Clubs is by far the worst grand.

Yes, I can construct hands where it's right to play in clubs, but a lot more where it's wrong.

Yes, it's only seriously wrong opposite something like x, AKxxxx, x, AQxxx or where partner has ♣AQJx and not ♥AKJxxx or ♦Q.

[gszes]

That's a 5♦ bid. If it isn't, what would you need to bid 5♦?

We can weaken it up a bit so that it only qualifies for 4d but that only

makes the lower and upper limit of 4d that much wider

 

 

 

[gnasher]

We can weaken it up a bit so that it only qualifies for 4d but that only

makes the lower and upper limit of 4d that much wider

4♦ is forcing. It would be normal to play 4♦-something-5♦ as a better hand than a direct 5♦.

[inquiry]

Sorry, FNJ is insane in this auction.

And this is an easy 4♦ bid first round.

I had decided not to reply to the "insane" comment about fit non jump (FNJ) in this auction, but I have changed my mind. In responding, I certainly don't mean to detract or derail the discussion about if this hand with seven diamonds it too good or too bad for other auctions starting with a diamond bid. I would say if I didn't play FJN I would make the very obvious 4♦ bid. However, one is not allowed to see one's hand before you decide what methods you are playing, and I play the "insane" FNJ on this auction.

 

The purpose of a FNJ on auctions like this is to seek consultation with partner over how best to continue the auction if the opponents bid over our contract (and when made at the four level, "our contrack" would be 4♥.). If you had a fit for partner in hearts, how likely are the opponents to bid over 4♥? You are vulnerable and they are not -- favoring them bidding, and if you have a heart fit -- and especially if you are short in spades -- you know they will bid over 4♥. If you just simply bid 4♥ on all hands worthy of game your partner will be in the blind about how to continue over 4♠. Should he risk the five level, is there a chance for slam, etc.

 

The FNJ, when used ON THIS AUCTION (the insane auction), conveys very specific information to partner. That info is,

1) I have a fit for hearts

2) Most (often all) of my values are in the FNJ suit and in our agreed suit (here hearts)

3) If they bid on, my hand is interested in doubling them -- for if I was -- I would have bid 4♥ directly (this is part of the most, if not all, my values are in the suits I have shown).

4) I may have slam ambition, but even if I do, I have good diamonds

 

When the inevitable 4♠ bid comes (assuming the FNJ player is short in spades), your partner will be in position to make the right decision a high percentage of the time. That is, by knowing you have honors in your two suits, and frequently none in the other two suits, but never strong holdings in the other two suits, his decision to defend of bid on is based on sound principles. This is the advantage of the FNJ. An obvious disadvantage is hands where you wish you could bid four of a minor and you lack support for opener's suit, but see testimonial below.

 

A FNJ of 4♦ on this "insane" auction shows hand like the following (at a minimum)

♠x ♥AQxx ♦KQxxxx ♣xx

♠x ♥Jxxx ♦KQTxx ♣Axx

♠xx ♥ATx ♦KQJx ♣xxxx

and many others. Stronger hands with diamonds and hearts are obviously also allowed, and in fact, if partner is willing to bid over their 4♠ after your FNJ and you have a stronger hand, you know slam is probably a great option, and if you have the stronger hand, you can bid 5♥ over their 4♠ after partner doubles (or even the rare pass), or make some slam move yourself.

 

Let's look at some random opener hands after a 4♦ FNJ.

The hand opposite the first fit nonjump hand given above was ♠x ♥Kxxxxx ♦Axx ♣AKx, and over 4♠ my partner bid 5♣, we had no trouble reaching 6♥. True some people reached 6♥ without using FNJ, but it just illustrates the point.

 

What if partner held.....

void KQJxxx KTxx KJT ?

...opposite a fit nonjump in diamonds? A slam try despite no aces seems in order, but surely you are bidding on.

 

xxx KQxxx x AQJx, ?

...where are declarer's tricks coming from? A double seems appropriate.

 

void Axxxxx Axx Kxxx, ?

... easy 5♥ bid over 4♠

 

Tx AKxxx x KJTxx, ?

... another reasonable double of 4♠, partner has good diamonds you have clubs and hearts, where are their tricks coming from. Such double isn't demand partner pass, but all of the normal strength FNJ you would.

 

And again, on hands where you (as responder) know what you would do to over 4♠ if they bid it, you simply raise to 4♥.

 

Now, when I catch hands like the one in this thread, i wish I wasn't wasn't playing FNJ here, but I assure you I have had success after success over the years since adopting this method and only the occassional hand were I really wish I wasn't playing FNJ. But amazingly I usually land on my feet being able to make a takeout double to show an offensive hand; most often when partner can rebid his suit despite no promised support or partner has a surprise stack in the opponents preemptive suit. But even here, the double leads to a reasonable outcome. Call FNJ "insane" if you like, but the method from Robson/Segal's book has served me quite well thank you very much. And, especially at matchpoint, the use of FNJ seems the percentage bid (useful more often than a natural, forcing new minor).

[rmnka447]

I'm starting with 4 ♦ because that describes my hand best at this point.

 

It's pretty hard to see that we'd lose more than 2 tricks if the opponents hold the remaining ♠ honors. Partner then almost assuredly holds most if not all the values in the rounded suits.

[gnasher]

I can't even consider bidding 4♦ because for me that is a fit nonjump (taken a long time ago from Robson/Segal 1M-jump overcall-new suit fit nonjump).

Are you sure they recommended that? And if so what page is it on?

[inquiry]

Are you sure they recommended that? And if so what page is it on?

 

I haven't read Robson/Segal in a long, long time. It turns out they did not have a section on how to deal with double jump overcalls. They do have one on how to deal with -- for instance -- a preemptive raise of opener's suit...

 

The auction would be 1♠-2♥-3♠-? Where 3♠ is "weak". There they suggest 4 of a minor to be fit nonjump or perhaps lead director (both).

 

Apparently it was just my partner and I that decided to extend this concept to 1S-(3H)-? and 1H-3S as those auctions do not appear to be discussed in the Robson/Segal book (now that I have downloaded the book again and gone back and checked it) this auction is not discussed in the book. However, it is a logical extension of their methods that I have been playing for many years with my partner. There is not a better place to use FNJ than on this auction because if you are short in spades it is as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow that your RHO taking advantage of the vulnerability will bid 4♠. But I can't blame "partnership bidding at bridge" for my insane treatment other than to say it gave us the idea. This auction is not discussed in the book one way or the other.

Edited June 14, 2013 by inquiry
to fix misquote