Forcing passes

[ahydra]

In your partnership, if you play any forcing passes do you have clear meta-rules of when they apply?

 

This one came up last night:

 

1C-(4H)-4S-(5H)

 

(1C is natural 4+) Would pass here by opener be forcing for you?

 

Thanks,

 

ahydra

[helene_t]

No.

[PhilKing]

Regardless of vulnerability, bidding game does not in itself set up FP.

 

We are only in FP if we have shown the high-card values for game.

 

Borderline cases are NF. My agreement is that competitive splinters, eg 1♠-(2♣)-4♣, do not set up FP, though that is not necessarily standard, and possibly not even right, but it fits my rules comfortably. It becomes more "right" when we are the overcalling side and splinter, I would say.

 

So there is nothing about this auction that would suggest we are obliged to take action.

[ahydra]

Fair enough. The gory details: red-on-white, I hold ♠xx ♥Ax ♦AKx ♣QJ10xxx. Auction as above. Clearly I can double 5H, but how do you tell what partner has? For example, he could have A10xxxx x J9xxx x (the actual hand) and 4S scrapes home on 3-2 trumps, or AKQxx x xxxxx Kx where 6C is on. Is this just a case of "pre-empts work", or would partner take out the double with the latter hand (I don't think he would)?

 

Thinking we were in FP I passed 5H and we collected a pathetic 100.

 

ahydra

[wangzhi123]

pass

[wangzhi123]

i insist that opponent suit has a or k double！if not pass！

if oppnent vollurable double！if not pass

[CamHenry]

Fair enough. The gory details: red-on-white, I hold ♠xx ♥Ax ♦AKx ♣QJ10xxx. Auction as above. Clearly I can double 5H, but how do you tell what partner has? For example, he could have A10xxxx x J9xxx x (the actual hand) and 4S scrapes home on 3-2 trumps, or AKQxx x xxxxx Kx where 6C is on. Is this just a case of "pre-empts work", or would partner take out the double with the latter hand (I don't think he would)?

 

Thinking we were in FP I passed 5H and we collected a pathetic 100.

 

ahydra

 

OK, if you're playing FP your pass is reasonable but I'm still inclined to double. Your partner isn't showing much by way of HCP, just shape and some values, and I'd expect him to have a long and mostly-useless spade suit on this auction.

 

The difficulty with a forcing pass here is that it hangs partner if he's stretched to bid 4♠.

[P_Marlowe]

yes, pass would be forcing, at least red vs. green.

 

In the end you have to decided, what is more likely

 

#1 that you continued the preempt

#2 that partner streched to bid 4S, and that 5H makes,

5S is to expensive.

 

I think #1 is more likely, than #2, but your experience

may differ.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

There is a good section in Robson-Segal about this. Whenever you make it so that a bid creates a FP then you also restrict the hands that can make that bid. Here, if you agree that 4♠ sets up a FP then you simply have to find a different call on hands where you are stretching. You have to evaluate which costs you more. For this reason it is not at all uncommon to play certain sequences as creating a FP at some colours but not at others. On this auction, the default must surely be that bidding 4♠ does not set up FPs but an agreement to play it reversed at red would certainly not be unreasonable.

[nige1]

In your partnership, if you play any forcing passes do you have clear meta-rules of when they apply? This one came up last night:

1C-(4H)-4S-(5H)

(1C is natural 4+) Would pass here by opener be forcing for you?

IMO 4♠ shows ♠ but is neutral about strength, so doesn't create a forcing-pass context. IMO, roughly speaking, pass should be forcing when you and partner both know that you have high-card values for game; but some auctions are a bit nebulous. For instance, does a UCB (unassuming cue-bid) set up a forcing pass? (IMO No at 2-level but Yes at 2-level). Hence you should explicitly agree common contexts. Perhaps, for example, after

• Strong 2♣ opener.
• Game-forcing 2/1 e.g. 1♥ (Pass) 2♦.
• Game-forcing Jacoby e.g. 1♠ (Pass) 2N.
• Game-forcing splinter e.g. 1♠ (Pass) 4♦.
• Game-forcing jump-shift e.g. 1♦ (Pass) 1♥ (Pass); 2♠
• High-level reverse (or technical reverse - forcing preference to 3-level) e.g. 1♥ (Pass) 1♠ (Pass); 2♥ (Pass) 3♣ .
• Fourth-suit forcing,