fourth suit in a 2/1

[shnk]

2/1 GF

1♠ - 2♣

2♥ - 3♦?

 

what, if anything, should this say about diamonds?

what should it say about strength?

[helene_t]

We can't have a diamond fit so it can't be natural but I think it makes sense to play it as an anti positional stopper, typically 2335 with Axx in diamonds. You can do it with Kxx also I would say. If you have this agreement then a hand with less in diamonds would have to rebid a 5-card clubs (or bid 2♠ if that is allowed on a doubleton).

[mikeh]

I'm not so sure as Helene that we can't have a diamond fit. For one thing, opener will rebid 2H with 5=4=4=0 shape, and for a second we may hold a 5=6 or wilder minor 2 suited and find partner with 3 card diamond support.

 

However these are rare situations and I think that 3D is better used as a probe, based on something like 2=3=3=5 with no diamond stopper OR the freak 2-suiters. With interest in checking out the 5440 hand, just bid 2N, since opener will then pattern out. Meanwhile the hand with no clear rebid is both more common than the freak and more important to work out below 3N.

 

I note Helene's idea of a positional hand wanting t get NT from partner's side, say with Qx, but I think that is too narrow a meaning.

[Zelandakh]

Bidding the fourth suit in GF auctions is one of those things that varies from group to group. My experiences from reading BBF over some time is that there is very much a difference of opinion between Europe and America (the continent, not only the US) here. As a general rule, when questions like this come up, the Americans like to play such bids as natural while the Europeans tend to play it as a NT probe of some sort.

 

Since I am European I will give it from that perspective. We can handle the hands that Mike describes by Responder rebidding 2NT on that hand and having Opener's subsequent 3♦ be natural. If you accept that as the route to a diamond fit then the only things left are as stopper asking, or as showing ♦Ax(x). While the latter may work better on this particular auction (not sure but quite possible) the former is better at I/A level since it is usable in a wide range of auctions and always useful. As Mike points out, you can also bundle some other strong and difficult-to-handle hands in this if you want.

[han]

Why would opener bid 2H with a 5-4-4-0 shape?

[wank]

Why would opener bid 2H with a 5-4-4-0 shape?

 

because you can lose the heart fit if responder jumps to 3nt on the 2nd round to share extras? of course you risk losing the diamond fit instead if you rebid 2h, but that's normally considered to be less of an issue.

[Cyberyeti]

because you can lose the heart fit if responder jumps to 3nt on the 2nd round to share extras? of course you risk losing the diamond fit instead if you rebid 2h, but that's normally considered to be less of an issue.

You simply agree that you don't jump to 3N with 4♥, 1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥-2N-3♥ to show the 544 is much preferable, then you use 3♥ instead of 2N as extras with hearts.

[mikeh]

Why would opener bid 2H with a 5-4-4-0 shape?

Because after 1S. 2C. 2D, using 2H as an artificial stall makes finding and confirming the heart fit below game problematic. Of course the same can be said to a lesser degree about the diamond fit when one bids 2H first with 5440, but responder can often stall with 2N and then raise 3D to 4 and be below game. This is an incomplete explanation but serves, I hope, to identify one salient argument.

[Winstonm]

I never liked the idea of 2c/3c as forcing in 2/1, so I always used that sequence as invitational, which allowed 3D to be the forcing club rebid.

[ggwhiz]

It's not a telling bid, it's a game force and asking.

 

Could be anything from a mild or better slam try in anything but diamonds to a hand that is unsure of notrump and giving you room to show 5 hearts or 6 spades, sometimes 5 good ones with no diamond stop.

 

What the 4th suit bid shows is essentially none of your business. Pard is the captain and your job is to make your cheapest natural descriptive bid and that includes bidding 4♣ if you happen to have a 5-4-1-3 hand since they asked for more info for a reason.

[wank]

you're already in a game force so you don't need it as a prelude to a slam try.

 

it should be either a big 2 suiter 65 or more or looking for a diamond stop for NTs (which doesn't necessarily mean it's also denying a stop). if you repeat diamonds it's the former, otherwise it's the latter.

[lowerline]

2/1 GF

1♠ - 2♣

2♥ - 3♦?

 

what, if anything, should this say about diamonds?

what should it say about strength?

 

Either natural (4-6 or 5-6) or asking for a stopper.

 

Steven

[gszes]

I just see no reason whatsoever for this to be a natural call. with a nice

56 hand in the minors a simple 2n will get a more defining bid from p

if they have support for you by bidding either 3c or 3d and if they continue

with 3h or 3s you will know they are exceedingly short in the minors so

your 56 hand is far less useful than you first imagined.

 

Looked at that way is seems 3d should have some utility concerning the

dia suit that does not include natural. the majors NT minors drumbeat

usually means we are done looking for the majors and wish to look for

NT (though it could also be a cue bid something we will discover later).

This means first responsibility for opener is to show a dia stop via 3n

4n whatever they need to show stop + power) (opener is still unlimited).

[shnk]

It's not a telling bid, it's a game force and asking.

 

Could be anything from a mild or better slam try in anything but diamonds to a hand that is unsure of notrump and giving you room to show 5 hearts or 6 spades, sometimes 5 good ones with no diamond stop.

 

Thanks everybody for responses.

 

This sounds like the general consensus -- 3D asks partner to bid 3NT with a diamond stop or further clarify her distribution.

 

The problem for me now is that we have some bids that ask for stoppers and some bids that show

For example:

1♠ - 2♣

3♣ - 3♥

Right now, we play that 3♥ is showing a stop; is it reasonable to switch this to asking?

2/1s are pretty rare, I'm trying to keep everything as consistent as possible.

[mike777]

good grief you guys make 3d so difficult

 

a very basic...very common auction.....silly silly

 

let me suggest that it is 5440 with xxxx in h and strong d...lol

 

you guys invent fake d suits and fake h suits.

[Zelandakh]

Right now, we play that 3♥ is showing a stop; is it reasonable to switch this to asking?

You can do this but it is probably not a good idea, since it causes some knock-on problems unless you change other parts of the system to match. Here is a rule for you that will probably resolve most cases: if there are 2 unbid suits then bidding one of them always shows something in the suit. If there is 1 unbid suit then bidding it is asking unless this is the only way of showing the suit naturally.

[aguahombre]

Mike777 has a point, somewhere in post 15. New suits if 2/1 is truly game forcing, should be searches for the correct strain. The bidding, until a strain is found, should be natural for the most part. There are three "stalls" which are necessary:

 

---sometimes rebidding a 5-card major by opener.

---sometimes using a 2NT 2nd-round 2nt by responder as nebulous.

---1S-2C-2D-2H (with built-in inference that opener does not have 4H).

 

5-4-4-0, after opening 1S and hearing a 2C response, should bid the red suits from the top down.