Is anything demonstrably suggested?

[gordontd]

There was a difference of opinion amongst the TDs on this one, but it wasn't appealed because the pair concerned were lying too far down the field.

 

We are told that a slow takeout double suggests leaving it in, and a slow penalty double suggests taking it out.

 

On this auction:

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1h4sppdp?]133|100[/hv]

 

What would you expect partner's double to be, and following from that, what do you think a slow double would suggest?

 

If you were told that double was neither takeout nor penalty, but 50/50 and partner is expected to judge what to do, what do you think a slow double would suggest?

 

If it matters, and I think it might, they were playing four card majors.

[mink]

The double is clearly takeout, and the hesitation suggests to leave it in. Possible reasons for the Break In Tempo are "maybe too weak", fear we cannot make anything at the 5 level though 4 will not make, distribution not really suitable for takeout and partner might chose my short minor suit.

 

Karl

[helene_t]

The double is typically 15(43) or such and the slowness could suggest either an (almost) too offensive hand (void spades) or an (almost) too defensive hand (maybe Hx in spades), or a hand with only modest extras.

 

If the pair plays a weak NT, a balanced (16)-17 with xx in spades might make a slow double.

 

So in itself the slowness doesn't suggest anything but in the context of South's holding it might. For example if South has xxxx in spades the slowness suggests taking it out.

[gordontd]

So in itself the slowness doesn't suggest anything but in the context of South's holding it might. For example if South has xxxx in spades the slowness suggests taking it out.

South's hand was

♠ 97

♥ T742

♦ 872

♣ KT32

[Cyberyeti]

Absent the extra info, the slowness suggests the ToX is not perfect, but this could be for any of a large number of reasons, so I don't think it particularly suggests anything.

 

For example partner could be 15(25) or very big and 3433.

 

With the extra info, partner either has a takeout double that doesn't want you to pass some hands you would normally pass, or something big and balanced where they don't want you to bid on some hands where you would normally bid, so again no suggestion.

 

Playing 4 card majors I'd also want to know what suit they open with 4M4m (we open the minor).

[gordontd]

Everyone seems keen to ignore their claim that they play the double as neither take-out nor penalty.

[Zelandakh]

How good and how old are the pair Gordon? In my experience, many poorer and older players use double here as general values and would do it with a big balanced hand. For them, 4NT is the pure takeout with spade shortage. Most better players, plus those that learned more recently, use the double as strictly takeout. The 50/50 definition suggests the former sort; in which case, was their 4NT bid as described?

 

The point here is that for the takeout double crowd, pausing surely suggests that the hand is likely to be more balanced and therefore it is suggested to leave it in more often. For the optional/values group, the pause suggests either that the double is a little weak or that it has more shape, which probably suggests taking it out.

[gnasher]

I don't agree that a slow takeout double suggests leaving it in. I think that a slow takeout double might be any of:

- Weakish with the right shape

- A high ODR, worried that partner will leave it in (typically with a spade void).

- Off-shape and scared that partner will take it out to the wrong suit (eg 1525 or even 2515)

- Strong but balanced

 

Everyone seems keen to ignore their claim that they play the double as neither take-out nor penalty.

Does "50/50" mean it's two-way and partner is expected to judge from his own hand, or that it covers the full range of hands from takeout to penalty, or that it's an in-between hand?

[Finch]

Everyone seems keen to ignore their claim that they play the double as neither take-out nor penalty.

 

That's because it makes our heads hurt.

 

p.s. in order to decide what is demonstrably suggested by UI from partner, are you allowed to look at your hand?

[Codo]

If partner has a take out, I bid 5 ♥ and I think nothing was suggested by the delay- too many possible reasons.

If partner has a penalty, I will leave it in, a slow double would make 5 ♥ a good bet, but the TDs would surely not allow me this bid.

If I do not know, what he holds, I try 5 ♥, I do not think that the BIT suggested passing or bidding.

If he holds neither a penalty, nor a take out, but say extras, I still bid 5 ♥ and again, what shall the BIT suggest?

 

Make the hand 2344 or 22(45), I would have been in trouble.....

[helene_t]

South's hand was

♠ 97

♥ T742

♦ 872

♣ KT32

It could be that a fast double would suggest a strong balanced hand, so after a slow double the ethical thing to do would be to pass it.

 

Playing the double as t/o it is the opposite, although in that case passing would be strange even by an unethical player who wanted to take advantage of the BIT, since the BIT could be for any number of reasons other than that the hand is not as offensive as it would normally be.

 

Given the stated agreements I think we should let South do whatever he wants.

[helene_t]

p.s. in order to decide what is demonstrably suggested by UI from partner, are you allowed to look at your hand?

I would think that you have to look at your hand, and take any other AI you might have into account. It's about what the player can infer from the UI.

[gordontd]

That's because it makes our heads hurt.

 

p.s. in order to decide what is demonstrably suggested by UI from partner, are you allowed to look at your hand?

It made my head hurt too!

 

I think if you consider what might be suggested by UI from partner, you can then exclude possibilities based on your hand.

[gordontd]

Does "50/50" mean it's two-way and partner is expected to judge from his own hand, or that it covers the full range of hands from takeout to penalty, or that it's an in-between hand?

I think they meant that it covers quite a range of hands from takeout to penalty.

[gordontd]

How good and how old are the pair Gordon? In my experience, many poorer and older players use double here as general values and would do it with a big balanced hand. For them, 4NT is the pure takeout with spade shortage. Most better players, plus those that learned more recently, use the double as strictly takeout. The 50/50 definition suggests the former sort; in which case, was their 4NT bid as described?

 

The point here is that for the takeout double crowd, pausing surely suggests that the hand is likely to be more balanced and therefore it is suggested to leave it in more often. For the optional/values group, the pause suggests either that the double is a little weak or that it has more shape, which probably suggests taking it out.

They are both Grand Masters, albeit those who have probably gained their ranks over quite a long period of time. And both around their sixties, I think. I don't think they were asked what they would bid 4NT on - certainly the hand that was held, and their answers to other questions, suggest that it wouldn't have been for takeout.

[gnasher]

p.s. in order to decide what is demonstrably suggested by UI from partner, are you allowed to look at your hand?

Yes, in fact you're implicitly required to do so. LAs are alternatives that are logical in the context of the available AI. The pause alone might be for one of several different reasons, but looking at your hand might eliminate some of those possibilities. We might have UI that in a vacuum doesn't suggest anything, but in context does suggest something.

 

For example (as Helene said), spade length might tell us that partner's pause was not because he was balanced.

[gnasher]

From the explanation of the double and your description of the players, I expect that they usually pass this double. If so, that eliminates the possibility that the UI is because opener is balanced, so bidding is suggested over passing.

[lamford]

There was a difference of opinion amongst the TDs on this one

I didn't read any further (other than to find out what the question was). It seems clear that nothing is demonstrably suggested.

 

When I do read further, I still find that nothing is demonstrably suggested.

[billw55]

How good and how old are the pair Gordon? In my experience, many poorer and older players use double here as general values and would do it with a big balanced hand. For them, 4NT is the pure takeout with spade shortage. Most better players, plus those that learned more recently, use the double as strictly takeout.

In that case, what do these better/younger players use 4NT for? And what is the advantage gained by using double as strictly takeout, that outweighs the loss of ability to penalize?

[lamford]

I don't think they were asked what they would bid 4NT on - certainly the hand that was held, and their answers to other questions, suggest that it wouldn't have been for takeout.

Maybe simple Blackwood?

[gordontd]

And what is the advantage gained by using double as strictly takeout, that outweighs the loss of ability to penalize?

I would expect one of the advantages to be that it increases the ability to penalise. If you have to bid 4NT for takeout, you can't thereafter defend 4♠x.

[gordontd]

I didn't read any further (other than to find out what the question was). It seems clear that nothing is demonstrably suggested.

 

When I do read further, I still find that nothing is demonstrably suggested.

That was my view initially. However, when we found out how they say they play the double, I had some concerns. If they are going to double on a 3433 hand as well as a 1633 hand (which is what the North hand was), I can't see how they can make any sensible decisions without the risk of unconsciously using UI from the tempo of the auction.

 

The South hand in question bid 5♥, but this would have been very wrong if partner had held a strong balanced hand, rather than the typical takeout doubling hand he had. The trouble is that it's really necessary to have some information about other similar auctions this pair might have had in order to be able to judge this with any accuracy.

 

In the event my colleagues decided to disallow the 5♥ bid, and as stated above the pair decided not to appeal because they were too far from the prizes.

[Cyberyeti]

Everyone seems keen to ignore their claim that they play the double as neither take-out nor penalty.

I didn't in my answer, they have either a pure take out double or a pure penalty double, which is unsuitable for their method, and no real indication which unless they use a slow/fast methodology.

[Zelandakh]

If so, that eliminates the possibility that the UI is because opener is balanced, so bidding is suggested over passing.

It seems clear that nothing is demonstrably suggested.

Of these two viewpoints, I think Andy's evaluation stands up better to scrutiny. For the players that Gordon describes, the UI suggests taking the double out.

 

In that case, what do these better/younger players use 4NT for? And what is the advantage gained by using double as strictly takeout, that outweighs the loss of ability to penalize?

How about a 0544 shape for 4NT, say? The arguments as to which method is more able to penalise are complex. Obviously the more often you double and the better defined the double is, the more opportunities you have. Similar arguments apply over a 4♠ opening too, which is also one of those where double has switched over time from optional to takeout.

[billw55]

How about a 0544 shape for 4NT, say? The arguments as to which method is more able to penalise are complex. Obviously the more often you double and the better defined the double is, the more opportunities you have. Similar arguments apply over a 4♠ opening too, which is also one of those where double has switched over time from optional to takeout.

I admit to not really understanding you.

 

0544 sounds like a specific shape of takeout to me. So that makes double and 4NT both takeout, and hence nothing at all that opener can do to penalize. So how is the argument complex about which method is more able to penalize?

 

And why would we play that double=takeout and 4NT=0544 in the first place? That sounds kind of redundant to me. OK, double will usually be 15(43). Is that a big enough difference to worry over? And why not reverse this procedure, double with 0544, when partner is at least slightly more likely to have a penalty pass?

 

Or is it just that opener wanting to penalize 4♠ is so rare that it is fair to dismiss it entirely?

 

So many questions ...