mike777 Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 From Bridge Today Mag.NV-VS-VUL 1D=2C=X=XX2S=3C=4S=5C??=PP=?? 1) is pass forcing over 5C? Why? 2) If opener passes what is your bid with:KXXXX=KJ98XX=X=X, AND WHY? 3) AS OPENER WHAT IS YOUR BID OVER 5C WITH:JT9X=QX=AKJXXX=T, AND WHY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 I read the same article, and I don't think its forcing. If responder can have the distributional 5-5, then this is the only way to bid this hand. Like Larry Cohen says, if the waiter can tell if a pass is forcing (my teammates say the caddy), then its forcing. Otherwise its not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 The pass is not forcing. Why? Because I don't play all game bids lead to a forcing pass situation. Read Robson/Segal on forcing pass (their book is available on line in PDF format). What would I bid with the SIX-FIVE hand? The old saying is with 6-5 come alive. I think, however, that I will hit 5 CLUBS. I have hearts, presumably partner has diamonds, and we both have spades. This doesn't mean we will beat it however. I am always ready to explain to partner that if they don't make some of their doubled contracts we are not doubling enough. Seeing me double here, you can see that I get to say this a lot. :-) I think pass with opener;s hand over 5!Cs is right, but I would be sorely tempted at this particular vul to bid one more for the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 not forcing and i pass with both hands. Don't have to X every contract that happens to go down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Clearly not forcing in my opinion, and I think I'd pass with both hands. (may depend on the form of scoring) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanbari Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 1) pass is not forcing by me either. but implied that parnter could bid on 5s with both diamond and spade double fit with shortage in club. 2) as i reading the auction, the opps's XX shows 4 card hearts most likely, otherwise he would choose 3c raise in the first place. i always try to use the LAW and the 5 level decision, opps has 10 or 11 club fit,and we had most 9 spade fit, total winner is 20. plus some downgrade adjustment due to HJ98, singleton diamond in partner's diamond suit. so i would choose defense. plus penalty double. 3) i have no idea, tough decision on the table. probably Pass. hope it all make sense. shan, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzerman Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 From Bridge Today Mag.NV-VS-VUL 1D=2C=X=XX2S=3C=4S=5C??=PP=?? 1) is pass forcing over 5C? Why? 2) If opener passes what is your bid with:KXXXX=KJ98XX=X=X, AND WHY? 3) AS OPENER WHAT IS YOUR BID OVER 5C WITH:JT9X=QX=AKJXXX=T, AND WHY? NEAT PROBLEM - I would pass with openers hand. I probably take cheap insurance with responders hand in 5S give the lack of defense (aces), the 9 card fit and 65 shape and who knows 5S might be a maker (u never know). The biggest risk I think bidding 5S runs is that opps might bid 6C, and occasionally (but that would be VERY rare) it will make. It is my belief in the long run, competing to 5S w/the combined hands will win more often than lose (@ MP I would consider pass as an avenue to a + score and IMPs I would bid as 5S is the action least likely to create swing). I commend all the people that pass 5C, I think pass is a great option and when 5C is NOT making you are getting nice score however I just cant resist B)))) MAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Unless partner has lost his mind, pass is forcing. First, he made a negative double at the 2-level, indicating usually 8-10 HCP; next, he freely jumped to game after your simple 2S bid. All indications is this is "our" hand and the opps cannot play at the 5-level undoubled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 some very good players have said pass isn't forcing, so that's most likely correct... however, i'd play it as forcing and i'd pass with opener's hand... with responder's hand, i'd bid 5♠ over partner's pass, because 1) the pass is forcing :angry: and 2) i can't double Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 At least it is not clear to me. White vs Red I tend to agree it is not forcing. However if we are vul, I think it should be forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helium Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 hi:) nice problem. 1. no this is one of VERY few auctions where pass is NOT forcing imo. 2.pass 3.dbl . and for more then one reason: 1. have ace king in my opening suit2.I dont want partner to bid 5♠ 3.I dont want to let opps play this undoubled (since pass isnt forcing)4. Im agressiv:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 I'm surprised to see that some of you consider this forcing. The jump to 4S does not show a good hand imo. I think that pass should only be forcing when it is absolutely clear, a jump to game is not enough. In fact, I think that this jump usually denies a lot of high card points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 It is not forcing and I would pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 I'm surprised to see that some of you consider this forcing. The jump to 4S does not show a good hand imo. I think that pass should only be forcing when it is absolutely clear, a jump to game is not enough. In fact, I think that this jump usually denies a lot of high card points. 1)Consider the same question but without the redbl. Would you think it is forcing?2)What pd should do with balanced game force hand after the 2C overcall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 ID say this, i believe its tehoretically best to play this as non forcing, but i think it make life alot easier if it would be forcing and even my not too solid but still regular partnership , i will think its forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 Here are some expert opinions:1) Cohen=N Kanter=Y Lawrence=Y Martel=Y Woolsey=Y Koskish=y Granovetter=Y 2) Kantar=5s Woolsey=5s Kokish=??? very close Martel= very close Granovetter=5s Cohen=P 3) Cohen=P Martel=X Woolsey=P Lawrence=X Kantar=X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 10, 2005 Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 I don't get it: Woolsey considers this forcing but would pass with responder's hand? Anyway, I would play this as forcing. Reponder bids 4♠ to make so it can't be good to defend 5♣ undoubled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firechief Posted January 10, 2005 Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 woolsey said he'd pass with opener's hand, not responder's. I'd bid to 5s with the responding hand. The auction really sounds forcing, but if the responding hand happens to hold all offense and no defense, I don't think he has to double (may pass). If the opener has enough defense to beat them, he'll double, so if responder is really weak, he isn't losing much when partner passes (assuming pass is forcing). I think opener has a very tough problem over 5c. I'd be sorely tempted to just pass, because 6 cards in diamonds doesn't mean 2 cashing tricks. Take away one of those diamonds, and I'd double quickly. Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 There is an interesting method devised by an Italian player (name escapes me at the moment) where in forcing pass situations the normal meanings are reversed. So: Double=I have a hand willing to bid on but you may convert. Pass= I would prefer to penalize the opponents but you may bid on. Pass/Pull= I have slam aspirations. This system describes the intent of the immediate hand but allows for the input of partner. Seems a good approach. WinstonM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 I never get these situations correct, probably because of poor judgement and having learned the approach that dbl constitued a warning to P against bidding on (maybe even have wasted values in Clubs?). I like the above idea of reversing the meanings....then I can blame the bad result on partner.....(laughter) but, seriously folks, how does one distinguish between the hand with wasted values in clubs, the "no clear cut action" hand with club losers but no wasted values in clubs, and the hands with a stiff/void in their suit without extra hcp values per se (not adverse to P bidding 5) in terms of bidding over 5♣? I am sooo bad at this kind of situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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